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#994285 - 03/11/05 11:07 PM
Re: i like BIG GUNS
[Re: MichaelCust]
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Super Stoner
Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: still waters
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I'm not sloganeering, and I read history all the time. My point with the little comment "smoke pot not people" is to contrast gun freedom vs. marijuana freedom. I reject any notion that the two causes are related, because one is a natural plant that frees your mind, the other is a man- made weapon that frequently kills. One is peaceful and can enlighten you, the other is used to cause the ultimate harm. All that is wrapped up in one little sentence which you failed to see the meaning of, I'm sorry you missed that. And what's Marxism got to do with this, or are you just looking to display your intellectual vanity with that comment?
"Your claim that Canada has less violence than the U.S. and that the difference is Canada's gun control is false. Statistically speaking, this argument holds no weight. Canada's murder rate has been lower than that of the United States for 200 years. During most of that time Canada has had no gun control."
How lucky we are in Canadian society. Unfortunately in the US, violence has escalated and the response of the public, out of fear for their personal safety is to arm themselves with more guns. It's like an arms race within US borders. But I understand this, it is a response out of fear.
The point I'm making- the love and acceptance of guns is an indicator of the love and acceptance of violence in US society. I mentioned the media. What sells in Hollywood? Good action flicks with lots of killing. People want to see that and are willing pay money for it, and that says something about the culture.
Let's consider what is at the root of this love for pulling a trigger. It means one thing to say "I need a gun to protect myself" but another to say "I love my guns". Why is their so much more violence in the US than in Canada? Not only because there are so many more guns, no, but mainly because, as a society you are addicted to violence. It is embedded in your culture, and in your domestic and foreign policy. It is a poison in your society. What Trudeau did was the right response before it is too late, impose martial law and carry out door to door searches. That brief few weeks of authoritarian rule in Quebec was harsh but necessary.
"Great Britain's violent crime rate is much, much higher than that of the U.S."
Claiming that another country has even more violence does not excuse or substantiate the levels of violence taking place in the US.
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#994286 - 03/12/05 01:30 AM
Re: i like BIG GUNS
[Re: tbud]
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Ganja God
Registered: 09/13/02
Posts: 7671
Loc: Minnesota
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Quote:
"After Australia and England and Wales, the highest prevalence of crime was in Holland (25 percent), Sweden (25 percent) and Canada (24 percent). The United States, despite its high murder rate, was among the middle ranking countries with a 21 percent victimization rate," the London Telegraph said.
If guns were not so vehemently railed against by those who refuse to accept that it is people that instigate violence, the crime rate would be even lower.
The murder rate is not related to gun ownership. In the U.S., in order to convict for murder, premeditation has to be proven. If you have decided to commit murder, ownership or availibility of a gun may make the crime easier to commit, but once you have decided to kill another, not having access to a gun is not going to deter you.
_________________________
Leaching
The 'chicken soup' of Cannabis growing.
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#994288 - 03/12/05 07:14 AM
Re: i like BIG GUNS
[Re: Wodan]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 2991
Loc: detroit area MI usa
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As i always say to my children while walking though Meijers dept stores in the tool aisle...The fools can outlaw guns, but that doesnt get rid of AXES..or MACHETES, or should we all just live in a world where we wear foam rubber suits and our mommies and daddies (ie govts) protect us from ourselves or our neighbors. I want to live in a world of adults, and that means equal RIGHTS and RESPONSIBILITIES. You mamby pampy people want SAFETY, unwilling to realize true safety comes from being in control of your own AUTONOMOUS BEING. Guns arent any more dangerous than a ROCK in the hand of a Palestinian, which is why rock thowing recieves return fire from semi automatic weapons. Its called "self-defense" and Id like one person on this forum TELL ME, please to my face, that I DONT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFEND MY PERSON AGAINST OPPRESSION, or ANY FORM OF HARM from Others!! That when confronted by a dangerous idiot i should choose what?? COMpliance?? Will agreeing with aggression make the person go away? No, that only EMPOWERS them. Anyway, two more cents, VOO< great to see you Posting as usual, love yer new show. MIKEY 
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#994289 - 03/12/05 09:18 AM
Re: i like BIG GUNS
[Re: tbud]
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Newbie
Registered: 07/11/03
Posts: 49
Loc: Vancouver, BC
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Quote:
I'm not sloganeering, and I read history all the time. My point with the little comment "smoke pot not people" is to contrast gun freedom vs. marijuana freedom. I reject any notion that the two causes are related, because one is a natural plant that frees your mind, the other is a man- made weapon that frequently kills...
The two are related on both a philosophical level and on a practical level. On a philosophical level both stem from an individual's right to own and enjoy private property. Under this right, marijuana takes the same status as firearms.
On a practical level, marijuana enthusiasts are going to be SOL if there is no one around to protect them from oppressive governments because no one is allowed to keep and bear arms.
Quote:
All that is wrapped up in one little sentence which you failed to see the meaning of, I'm sorry you missed that. And what's Marxism got to do with this...
I do understand it. And I have two problems with it. First, logically it fails to sustantiate your anti-gun position. If a person holds that people should smoke marijuana, but not kill people, it does not necessarily mean that they oppose firearm ownership. It might, for instance, be the case that they believe in deterrence, thinking that increased firearm ownership will deter violent acts because of a fear of reprisal. Second, sloganeering is anti-intellectual -- to me that's what makes it cheesy. My reference to Marxism is for contrast: it is also left but it avoids sloganeering in favour of intelligent theorising.
Quote:
...How lucky we are in Canadian society. Unfortunately in the US, violence has escalated and the response of the public, out of fear for their personal safety is to arm themselves with more guns. It's like an arms race within US borders. But I understand this, it is a response out of fear.
I don't know that firearm ownership has increased within U.S. borders, but I do know that American states with (a) higher rates of firearm ownership, (b) laws permitting concealed carry of handguns, and/or (c) less gun control have significantly lower rates of crime than states with (d) lower rates of firearm ownership, (e) no laws permitting the conceled carry of handguns, and/or (f) more gun control.
Quote:
The point I'm making- the love and acceptance of guns is an indicator of the love and acceptance of violence in US society. I mentioned the media. What sells in Hollywood? Good action flicks with lots of killing. People want to see that and are willing pay money for it, and that says something about the culture.
Action movies sell heavily in Canada (and around the world). By your logic this also makes Canada a culture of violence. This, however, contradicts your claim that Canada is a culture of violence while the U.S. is not. Reductio ad absurdum.
If there is anything offensive about Hollywood movies, it's not the use of guns, but the worship of government. The hero is always a cop or some other member of government. Very rarely in Hollywood films -- i.e. Enemy of the State -- is government the bad guy. If Hollywood is a successful cultural indicator of the United States, Americans -- alarmingly -- do not have a healthy distrust of government. Just the opposite, mainstream America revels in its love of the state.
Quote:
Let's consider what is at the root of this love for pulling a trigger. It means one thing to say "I need a gun to protect myself" but another to say "I love my guns". Why is their so much more violence in the US than in Canada? Not only because there are so many more guns, no, but mainly because, as a society you are addicted to violence. It is embedded in your culture, and in your domestic and foreign policy. It is a poison in your society.
I'm not an American. I'm a Canadian born and raised. It's nice, however, to be the target of your hate towards Americans. Your entire rant seems to suggest that Americans are inferior to Canadians. Should we rid the world of them? Is this your final solution?
I agree, however, that American foreign policy is unjust. America should keep its noise out of the business of other countries. Domestically, America should drop the War on Drugs. But neither of these have to do with the merits and demerits of gun control which we are debating.
Quote:
What Trudeau did was the right response before it is too late, impose martial law and carry out door to door searches. That brief few weeks of authoritarian rule in Quebec was harsh but necessary.
You support Trudeau's use of martial law... Wow, that's scary.
If government can suspend all rights whenever it deems the threat necessary, where does it draw the line? If grow-op violence increased, should government suspend all rights and arrest all growers without charges? That's all that happened with Quebec separatism.
Quote:
Claiming that another country has even more violence does not excuse or substantiate the levels of violence taking place in the US.
No, but it does show that gun control does nothing to curb violence. The U.K. has banned most forms of firearm ownership and violent crime is nonetheless alarmingly high. Since the 1997 handgun ban many types of violent crime have skyrocketed: home invasions, robberies, etc.
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#994290 - 03/12/05 06:23 PM
Re: i like BIG GUNS
[Re: MichaelCust]
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Super Stoner
Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: still waters
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Quote:
I'm not an American. I'm a Canadian born and raised. It's nice, however, to be the target of your hate towards Americans. Your entire rant seems to suggest that Americans are inferior to Canadians. Should we rid the world of them? Is this your final solution?
I don't mind you voicing your opinion about guns, you're entitled to it just like anyone, but please don't twist my words around, or try to put words in my mouth. Where did I ever say that I hate americans, or anyone else for that manner? I don't hate anyone, so maybe you should apologize for that comment, it was a cheap accusation. You sound like a hyper- intellectual college boy from waterloo. Tell me if I'm wrong.
Neither did I "rant", just voiced my opinion. The fact is that you ignored my basic message about the connection between the love for guns and acceptance of violence, and of fear. You can't refute that, and your so-called facts are not substantiated by any evidence on your part. Just because you claim that it's true, does not necessarily make it so. Statistics and numbers do not matter. Anyone can draw and infer something from statistics to support their claims, on both sides of this argument.
Quote:
By your logic this also makes Canada a culture of violence. This, however, contradicts your claim that Canada is a culture of violence while the U.S. is not. Reductio ad absurdum.
It's not a "reductio ad absudium", Mr. Neitsche. Canada is deeply influenced by the culture of the United States. Never in my post did I excuse Canada as being better than the US, there are certainly many people in Canada who are violent, as we saw last week, and many who oppose the gun registry.
In Canada we have a Firearms aquisition licence. A person has to take a training course and pass a test in order to get it. The course teaches things like the proper storage of firearms. Under the licence, firearms must be stored in a locked gun cabinet. Not laying around on the coffee table for a 6-year old to find. Trigger locks are mandatory. Bullets must be locked in a separate container. The point of this is to teach the individual how to be responsible with their weapons, which is what people here who like guns seem to be talking about, the responsible gun owners. There's no problem with normal people who want to take their guns to the shooting range and play, so long as they realize the responsibilty of guns, and how to handle them. You take the course and you get a licence. What is wrong with this concept? People are generally dumb and need training when they use dangerous equipment, such as guns or cars.
Contrast this with the United States, where the NRA has successfully lobbied to remove the 48 hour delay on acquiring firearms, where Clintons restriction on assault weapons recently expired, and where no training is required to purchase a gun. Think about how incompetent some people are, they can barely work a bank machine but they can have a gun.
You seem pleased about the DEA guy who shot himself in the leg. The majority of injuries and deaths related to guns are self- inflicted. Yes it's a statistic. But this video you posted proves the point, and your pleasure in showing it, also proves my point.
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#994292 - 03/12/05 08:24 PM
Re: Are guns bad ?
[Re: persona_o]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Use an analogy:
Dynamite + fire
Drugs + guns
Both have their place and if for separate reasons, the person should have the right to either. But the combination of both is often disastrous.
Due to the middle-class, low population of Canada we tend to be smug about low crime and violence here. We shouldn't be. If myself, a friend, or family member had ever been held up, I might think twice about wanting to level the playing field.
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#994294 - 03/13/05 08:23 AM
Re: Are guns bad ?
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 1652
Loc: Northern Ontario
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"Due to the middle-class, low population of Canada we tend to be smug about low crime and violence here. We shouldn't be."
It's not because we're middle-class and sparsely populated that our gun violence is lower - we have very densely populated areas (Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Ottawa - all big cities), and though gun violence does occur there on a regular basis, it's nowhere near the level of American cities. And when you look in other places around the world, like England, or Japan, which are highly populated, the gun violence is still low. Perhaps it's the poverty - America has a huge divide between rich and poor, and their minimum wage is quite low, and they have few services for the poor compared to other first world countries.. there's perhaps more desperate people in the US than in many other densely populated first world nations.
>>If myself, a friend, or family member had ever been held up, I might think twice about wanting to level the playing field.<<
I would say that getting held up is probably the worst time to have a gun - it's not like you can draw your pistol when you already have a gun in your face. Home invasions I can see the potential usefulness of a big ass gun, and I've known some Americans that have used guns in those situations. But overall I think it's sad to that Americans live in a country where home invasions and murders happen often enough to make people sleep with a loaded pistol next to them.
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But I think they're only good for two things, hunting tasty creatures and target practice (so that you can hit that tasty creature when it's in season). I think it's sad when people feel the need to rely on them for self or home defense.. what kind of fucked up world are they living in? 
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