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#1666378 - 10/11/10 04:24 AM Re: Noam Chomsky’s book ‘Fateful Triangle’ ** [Re: davidmalmolevine]
onegreenday Offline
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I lost respect for Chomsky when he equates today's Palestinian rights with the Wapanoags (circa 1620)rights
of New England.

He reveals himself with there...........

I'm not past the crimes of the Nakba;
never mind 1 or 2 state solution.

I want Nuremberg trials for the zionist crimes of the Nakba in Palestine. Chomsky says I wont get what I want.

I want what world jewery demanded after ww11; justice.

The Holocaust only lasted a few years. The zionist
'ethnic cleansing' (genocide/holocaust) on Palestine has lasted 60 years and is even more atrocious and brutal today.

Which is the greater crime? Hitler's crimes or the zionist crimes?

Chomsky does not believe in borders is what
I got from the interview. An Ottoman empire without the violence.

Most disturbing is Chomsky's admission that
the PA has clamped down on and stymied any dissent in the West Bank by brutal means and in collusion with
USA

and Chomsky won't grant the 'right of return'
which means eternal war......

Originally Posted By: davidmalmolevine
"Chomsky says he believes Israel to be a 'state'
under the world system of governments (he may not like it) so I say he bows to that illegal formation by the UN."

1) That's different than what you said the first time.

2) You still haven't provided a source for what you're talking about - I believe you're taking his words out of context on purpose.

3) You haven't answered my question - do you believe in a two-state solution?

_________________________
Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle
or great intelligence. Robert F. Kennedy

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#1666389 - 10/11/10 05:38 AM Re: Noam Chomsky’s book ‘Fateful Triangle’ [Re: onegreenday]
davidmalmolevine Offline
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Registered: 09/17/99
Posts: 21454
Loc: BC
"I'm not past the crimes of the Nakba;
never mind 1 or 2 state solution."

You're like the Jews who can't get passed the destruction of the second temple in 70 CE. If you can't get over past atrocities and move on to a peaceful solution you are no better than the hardliner Jews who can't do that either.

History provides plenty of atrocities on both sides - only those who can avoid focusing on the past and instead envision a peaceful and just solution will be able to manifest that solution.

You ignore the Arab Peace Proposal because ... you want war crime trials instead? I want war crimes trials for Bayer and Exxon but if I had a chance to simply put them out of the business of war I would jump on it even if it meant giving up the right to prosecute them.

You "no two state solution" hard liners are in the minority, thankfully:

The Arab Peace Initiative is a comprehensive peace initiative first proposed in 2002 at the Beirut Summit of the Arab League by then-Crown Prince, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, and re-endorsed at the Riyadh Summit in 2007.[1] The initiative attempts to end the Arab-Israeli conflict, which means normalizing relations between the entire Arab region and Israel, in exchange for a complete withdrawal from the occupied territories (including East Jerusalem) and a "just settlement" of the Palestinian refugee crisis based on UN Resolution 194 (which calls for a diplomatic resolution to the conflict and resolves that any refugees "wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors" should be able to do so or if they otherwise wish to be provided with compensation).[2] The Initiative was initially overshadowed by the Passover Massacre, a major terrorist attack that took place on March 27, 2002 (the day before the Initiative was published) and that had been claimed by the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas' military wing.[3] The Arab League has since readopted the Initiative on several occasions, including during the 2007 summit.

Although a number of Israeli officials have responded to the Initiative with both support and criticism, the Israeli state is yet to formulate an official response.[4][5] Former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert expressed reservations over the plan and invited Arab leaders to discuss them, but welcomed the initiative as a "new way of thinking, the willingness to recognize Israel as an established fact and to debate the conditions of the future solution, is a step that I can't help but appreciate."[6] In 2007, Benjamin Netanyahu, as opposition leader, as well as a number of Likud members, rejected the initiative outright.^ In 2009, President Shimon Peres expressed satisfaction at the "u-turn" in the attitudes of Arab states toward peace with Israel as reflected in the Saudi initiative, though he did qualify his comments by saying: "Israel wasn't a partner to the wording of this initiative. Therefore it doesn't have to agree to every word."^ The Palestinian Authority strongly supports the plan and Mahmoud Abbas officially asked President Barack Obama to adopt it as part of his Middle East policy.[7] Islamist political party Hamas, the elected government of the Gaza Strip, is deeply divided,[8] with most factions rejecting the plan.[1]

George Mitchell, the United States special envoy to the Middle East, announced in March 2009 that President Barack Obama's administration intends to "incorporate" the initiative into its Middle East policy.[9]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative


_________________________
"making the earth a common treasury for all, both rich and poor." Gerrard Winstanley; April 20, 1649

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#1666404 - 10/11/10 07:10 AM Re: Noam Chomsky’s book ‘Fateful Triangle’ [Re: davidmalmolevine]
onegreenday Offline
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jews still demand trials for nazi war criminals in 2010
but no trials
for zionist criminals of 1948 or 2010.

there can be no peace unless there's justice for
all.


http://alethonews.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/video-ilan-pappe-on-the-nakba-of-palestine/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUDh-jTa3Go&feature=player_embedded

Ilan Pappe on "The Nakba of Palestine"

Historian Ilan Pappe of Exeter University discusses the people and ideology behind the crimes of the war of 1948, which he describes as the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. This speech was given at the Al-Awda Convention in 2008.

EDIT: As George Orwell put it in his great dystopic novel Nineteen Eighty-Four, “He who controls the past controls the future, and he who controls the present controls the past.”


Edited by onegreenday (10/11/10 07:55 AM)
_________________________
Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle
or great intelligence. Robert F. Kennedy

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#1666420 - 10/11/10 08:00 AM Re: Noam Chomsky’s book ‘Fateful Triangle’ [Re: onegreenday]
davidmalmolevine Offline
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Registered: 09/17/99
Posts: 21454
Loc: BC
As long as we are quoting Orwell, let's see what he had to say about the topic of revenge:


Revenge is Sour

Whenever I read phrases like 'war guilt trials', 'punishment of war
criminals' and so forth, there comes back into my mind the memory of
something I saw in a prisoner-of-war camp in South Germany, earlier this
year.

Another correspondent and myself were being show round the camp by a
little Viennese Jew who had been enlisted in the branch of the American
army which deals with the interrogation of prisoners. He was an alert,
fair-haired, rather good-looking youth of about twenty-five, and
politically so much more knowledgeable than the average American officer
that it was a pleasure to be with him. The camp was on an airfield, and,
after we had been round the cages, our guide led us to a hangar where
various prisoners who were in a different category from the others were
being 'screened'.

Up at one end of the hangar about a dozen men were lying in a row on the
concrete floor. These, it was explained, were S.S. officers who had been
segregated from the other prisoners. Among them was a man in dingy
civilian clothes who was lying with his arm across his face and
apparently asleep. He had strange and horribly deformed feet. The two of
them were quite symmetrical, but they were clubbed out into an
extraordinary globular shape which made them more like a horse's hoof
than anything human. As we approached the group, the little Jew seemed to
be working himself up into a state of excitement.

'That's the real swine!' he said, and suddenly he lashed out with his
heavy army boot and caught the prostrate man a fearful kick right on the
bulge of one of his deformed feet.

'Get up, you swine!' he shouted as the man started out of sleep, and then
repeated something of the kind in German. The prisoner scrambled to his
feet and stood clumsily to attention. With the same air of working
himself up into a fury--indeed he was almost dancing up and down as he
spoke--the Jew told us the prisoner's history. He was a 'real' Nazi: his
party number indicated that he had been a member since the very early
days, and he had held a post corresponding to a General in the political
branch of the S.S. It could be taken as quite certain that he had had
charge of concentration camps and had presided over tortures and
hangings. In short, he represented everything that we had been fighting
against during the past five years.

Meanwhile, I was studying his appearance. Quite apart from the scrubby,
unfed, unshaven look that a newly captured man generally has, he was a
disgusting specimen. But he did not look brutal or in any way
frightening: merely neurotic and, in a low way, intellectual. His pale,
shifty eyes were deformed by powerful spectacles. He could have been an
unfrocked clergyman, an actor ruined by drink, or a spiritualist medium.
I have seen very similar people in London common lodging houses, and also
in the Reading Room of the British Museum. Quite obviously he was
mentally unbalanced--indeed, only doubtfully sane, though at this moment
sufficiently in his right mind to be frightened of getting another kick.
And yet everything that the Jew was telling me of his history could have
been true, and probably was true! So the Nazi torturer of one's
imagination, the monstrous figure against whom one had struggled for so
many years, dwindled to this pitiful wretch, whose obvious need was not
for punishment, but for some kind of psychological treatment.

Later, there were further humiliations. Another S.S. officer, a large
brawny man, was ordered to strip to the waist and show the blood group
number tattooed on his under-arm; another was forced to explain to us how
he had lied about being a member of the S.S. and attempted to pass
himself off as an ordinary soldier of the Wehrmacht. I wondered whether
the Jew was getting any real kick out of this new-found power that he was
exercising. I concluded that he wasn't really enjoying it, and that he
was merely--like a man in a brothel, or a boy smoking his first cigar,
or a tourist traipsing round a picture gallery--TELLING himself that he
was enjoying it, and behaving as he had planned to behave in the days he
was helpless.

It is absurd to blame any German or Austrian Jew for getting his own back
on the Nazis. Heaven knows what scores this particular man may have had
to wipe out; very likely his whole family had been murdered; and after
all, even a wanton kick to a prisoner is a very tiny thing compared with
the outrages committed by the Hitler régime. But what this scene, and
much else that I saw in Germany, brought home to me was that the whole
idea of revenge and punishment is a childish daydream. Properly speaking,
there is no such thing as revenge. Revenge is an act which you want to
commit when you are powerless and because you are powerless: as soon as
the sense of impotence is removed, the desire evaporates also.

Who would not have jumped for joy, in 1940, at the thought of seeing S.S.
officers kicked and humiliated? But when the thing becomes possible, it
is merely pathetic and disgusting. It is said that when Mussolini's
corpse was exhibited in public, an old woman drew a revolver and fired
five shots into it, exclaiming, 'Those are for my five sons!' It is the
kind of story that the newspapers make up, but it might be true. I wonder
how much satisfaction she got out of those five shots, which, doubtless,
she had dreamed years earlier of firing. The condition of her being able
to get close enough to Mussolini to shoot at him was that he should be a
corpse.

In so far as the big public in this country is responsible for the
monstrous peace settlement now being forced on Germany, it is because of
a failure to see in advance that punishing an enemy brings no
satisfaction. We acquiesce in crimes like the expulsion of all Germans
from East Prussia--crimes which in some cases we could not prevent but
might at least have protested against--because the Germans had angered
and frightened us, and therefore we were certain that when they were down
we should feel no pity for them. We persist in these policies, or let
others persist in them on our behalf, because of a vague feeling that,
having set out to punish Germany, we ought to go ahead and do it.
Actually there is little acute hatred of Germany left in this country,
and even less, I should expect to find, in the army of occupation. Only
the minority of sadists, who must have their 'atrocities' from one source
or another, take a keen interest in the hunting-down of war criminals and
quislings. If you asked the average man what crime Goering, Ribbentrop,
and the rest are to be charged with at their trial, he cannot tell you.
Somehow the punishment of these monsters ceases to sem attractive when it
becomes possible: indeed, once under lock and key, they almost cease to
be monsters.

Unfortunately, there is often a need of some concrete incident before one
can discover the real state of one's feelings. Here is another memory
from Germany. A few hours after Stuttgart was captured by the French
army, a Belgian journalist and myself entered the town, which was still
in some disorder. The Belgian had been broadcasting throughout the war
for the European Service of the BBC, and, like nearly all Frenchmen or
Belgians, he had a very much tougher attitude towards 'the Boche' than an
Englishman or an American would have. All the main bridges into town had
been blown up, and we had to enter by a small footbridge which the
Germans had evidently mad efforts to defend. A dead German soldier was
lying supine at the foot of the steps. His face was a waxy yellow. On his
breast someone had laid a bunch of the lilac which was blooming
everywhere.

The Belgian averted his face as we went past. When we were well over the
bridge he confided to me that this was the first time he had seen a dead
man. I suppose he was thirty five years old, and for four years he had
been doing war propaganda over the radio. For several days after this,
his attitude was quite different from what it had been earlier. He looked
with disgust at the bomb-wrecked town and the humiliation the Germans
were undergoing, and even on one occasion intervened to prevent a
particularly bad bit of looting. When he left, he gave the residue of the
coffee we had brought with us to the Germans on whom we were billeted. A
week earlier he would probably have been scandalized at the idea of
giving coffee to a 'Boche'. But his feelings, he told me, had undergone a
change at the sight of ce pauvre mort beside the bridge: it had suddenly
brought home to him the meaning of war. And yet, if we had happened to
enter the town by another route, he might have been spared the experience
of seeing one corpse out of the--perhaps--twenty million that the war
has produced.

http://www.george-orwell.org/Revenge_is_Sour/0.html
_________________________
"making the earth a common treasury for all, both rich and poor." Gerrard Winstanley; April 20, 1649

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#1666425 - 10/11/10 08:17 AM Re: Noam Chomsky’s book ‘Fateful Triangle’ [Re: davidmalmolevine]
onegreenday Offline
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Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1531
Loc: Pawtucket, RI
every single day the zionist perpetrates revenge
crimes in Palestine
for the holocaust and
seek out nazis for trial or anybody
that will stand against their crimes...
_________________________
Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle
or great intelligence. Robert F. Kennedy

Top
#1666433 - 10/11/10 08:53 AM Re: Noam Chomsky’s book ‘Fateful Triangle’ [Re: onegreenday]
davidmalmolevine Offline
Ganja God
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Registered: 09/17/99
Posts: 21454
Loc: BC
You're a fanatic who would sacrifice the two-state solution the world wants for a revenge that would do nobody any good. You might as well endorse the Protocols and Mein Kampf right now ... your absolutist mentality of the "all powerful Jews" who "control the US foreign policy" and who "deserve punishment for their crimes" fits neatly into those philosophies. I dare you to point out the differences between your perspective and the perspective of the authors of the following tracts:

http://www.aztlan.net/protocols.htm

http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/mkv1ch11.html
_________________________
"making the earth a common treasury for all, both rich and poor." Gerrard Winstanley; April 20, 1649

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#1666450 - 10/11/10 10:57 AM Re: Noam Chomsky’s book ‘Fateful Triangle’ [Re: davidmalmolevine]
onegreenday Offline
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Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1531
Loc: Pawtucket, RI
you complicate this so much David .

It's simple justice. Jews demand justice
and so does Palestine.

Israel commits crimes daily against a helpless, enslaved
people; now coming under direct us/israel
assault by paid PA goons.

USA & Israel are above International justice and cannot
be brought to justice in ANY court.

Until the world solves this simple problem
of universal justice we are doomed to
perpetual war & suffering.

Pres Chavez motion at the UN could
make that day happen.

edit:

Would you call Pappe a radical?
I want what he wants...


http://alethonews.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/video-ilan-pappe-on-the-nakba-of-palestine/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUDh-jTa3Go&feature=player_embedded

Ilan Pappe on "The Nakba of Palestine"

Historian Ilan Pappe of Exeter University discusses the people and ideology behind the crimes of the war of 1948, which he describes as the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. This speech was given at the Al-Awda Convention in 2008.






Edited by onegreenday (10/11/10 11:02 AM)
_________________________
Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle
or great intelligence. Robert F. Kennedy

Top
#1666504 - 10/11/10 03:26 PM Re: Noam Chomsky’s book ‘Fateful Triangle’ [Re: onegreenday]
davidmalmolevine Offline
Ganja God
***

Registered: 09/17/99
Posts: 21454
Loc: BC
Does Chomsky say anywhere (please provide the source so I can see the context) that he's against trials?

Who is still alive from 1948 to prosecute in your war crimes trials?

Should we not then also have a trial for those responsible for the killing of 50 million North American native people from 1492 to 1900 ?

Or is a Truth and Reconciliation Commission enough?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_Reconciliation_Commission_%28South_Africa%29

http://www.trc-cvr.ca/overview.html
_________________________
"making the earth a common treasury for all, both rich and poor." Gerrard Winstanley; April 20, 1649

Top
#1666514 - 10/11/10 04:22 PM Re: Noam Chomsky’s book ‘Fateful Triangle’ [Re: davidmalmolevine]
onegreenday Offline
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Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1531
Loc: Pawtucket, RI
You (Israel)still want nazi blood (current prosecution)

http://worldnews.about.com/od/crime/tp/nazimostwanted.htm

The Simon Wiesenthal Center updated its list of most wanted Nazis on April 1, 2008, along with an update about various countries' cooperation in helping bring Nazi war criminals to justice after all these years. "I pray for the health of Nazis every day," said Efraim Zuroff, Israel director of the Wiesenthal Center and coordinator of research on Nazis remaining worldwide. "But only for those I can bring to justice." Following are my original profiles of those on the most-wanted list.
Dr. Aribert Heim -snip-

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/sep/12/nazi-trial-is-slowed-by-ills-of-demjanjuk/

Demjanjuk's ills slow Nazi trial
Defendant, 90, accused of serving as guard in German death camp
Judge Thomas Walther (left) waits as defendant John Demjanjuk (right) enters the courtroom in a wheelchair in February for a session in Munich. Judge Walther is one of the key figures in the decision to try Mr. Demjanjuk, who is the first non-German alleged Nazi collaborator to stand trial in a German court. His trial resumes this week in Munich after a summer break. (Associated Press)Judge Thomas Walther (left) waits as defendant John Demjanjuk (right) enters the courtroom in a wheelchair in February for a session in Munich. Judge Walther is one of the key figures in the decision to try Mr. Demjanjuk, who is the first non-German alleged Nazi collaborator to stand trial in a German court. His trial resumes this week in Munich after a summer break. (Associated Press)

By David Rising

-

Associated Press

5:56 p.m., Sunday, September 12, 2010
MugshotRetired Ohio autoworker John Demjanjuk, 90, is accused of serving as a Nazi death camp guard. His trial resumes this week in Munich after a summer break. (Associated Press)



BERLIN | John Demjanjuk attends most sessions of his trial in a hospital bed set up in the courtroom, wearing dark sunglasses and a hat pulled down over his face.

The case of the retired Ohio autoworker accused of serving as a Nazi death camp guard — which resumes this week after a monthlong summer break — broke potentially precedent-setting ground when it opened last year.

But it has become increasingly dominated by the 90-year-old defendant's failing health.

Nazi hunters have taken keen interest in the Demjanjuk saga, because it's the first time German authorities have prosecuted such a low-ranking suspect on the premise that, even without evidence of a specific crime, simply working at a death camp was enough to be an accessory to murder.

German prosecutors have since opened investigations of two others on a similar basis, both men who were called as witnesses at the Demjanjuk trial — and a conviction could open the way to scores of more such cases.

However, such questions have become secondary to the endless health complications of the man accused of having served in occupied Poland's Sobibor death camp.

Mr. Demjanjuk suffers from bone-marrow disease and other medical problems, and nearly a dozen out of a scheduled 57 court dates have been canceled so far for health reasons. The health issues have slowed the proceedings to a crawl as the judges struggle to balance Mr. Demjanjuk's needs with its schedule of evidence and witnesses.

Hearings originally were scheduled through May, then extended into December, and now most observers don't anticipate a verdict before well into 2011.

"If Demjanjuk is well enough, I expect more dates until Easter — I do not expect an end of the trial before that," said Stefan Schuenemann, who represents two Sobibor survivors as co-plaintiffs in the trial, as allowed under German law.

The Ukrainian-born Mr. Demjanjuk stood trial in Israel in the 1980s on charges he was the notoriously brutal guard "Ivan the Terrible" at the Treblinka extermination camp. He was convicted, sentenced to death — then freed when an Israeli court overturned the ruling, saying the evidence showed he was the victim of mistaken identity.

Mr. Demjanjuk was deported from the U.S. in 2009 to stand trial in Germany, charged with being an accessory to the killing of 28,060 people at Sobibor.

He again argues he is being mistaken for someone else and denies having served as a guard for the Nazis anywhere. His attorneys have argued he was one of Hitler's victims himself: first wounded as a Soviet soldier fighting German forces, then captured and held as a prisoner of war under brutal conditions.

Even if the judges find there is enough proof that Mr. Demjanjuk was at Sobibor, they still have to accept the prosecution's argument that being present at the camp was akin to participation in the Holocaust — no matter what his job.

"There must be a limit," Mr. Schuenemann said, explaining the difficulties the prosecution faces. "How near must you be to the killing? You pushed Jews into the gas chambers or you just guarded the fence? These are questions that have to be answered in the trial, and it's not easy … where does responsibility start?"

In court, Mr. Demjanjuk has never shown any reaction to testimony — although he speaks with his attorneys and translator during breaks. His son, John Demjanjuk Jr., points to the fact that he has needed nine blood transfusions since coming to Germany last May as treatment for dangerously low hemoglobin levels.

"He is under constant medical care, and while he is willing, he is unable to follow the proceedings, and is no more fit for trial than 99 percent of the Germans currently living out their last days in nursing homes," he said.

But Barbara Stockinger, a spokeswoman for prosecutors in Munich, dismissed concerns that the trial might soon be unable to continue.

"I am no doctor … but there is always a doctor present, and he has said that he is fit for trial," she said.

At one point in July, Judge Ralph Alt ordered Mr. Demjanjuk into court, saying that prison doctors had determined he was fit, but that he was refusing to attend because he had "no interest."

The defense contests that, saying Mr. Demjanjuk was legitimately ill, and filed a motion during the summer break, which has not yet been ruled upon, asking for Judge Alt's removal from the case.

Efraim Zuroff, the top Nazi hunter at the Wiesenthal Center, said health issues come up in most prosecutions now — more than 65 years after the end of World War II with even the youngest defendants now in their 80s. He said it takes a "moral resolve" to continue with them.

"It's too easy to walk away from this," he said in a telephone interview from Jerusalem.

"I think, so far, the judges and prosecution have not given in and rightfully so. The doctors say he can continue; he has to continue."

Mr. Demjanjuk is accused of serving as a "wachmann" or guard at Sobibor, subordinate to German SS men.

Mr. Demjanjuk's family questions why his has emerged as the test case — and has suggested that trying a Ukrainian helps deflect blame from Germany.

"It is shockingly wrong for the Germans to have ignored bringing their own people to trial for so many years and to now break new legal ground against a 90-year-old ill man who himself was a POW victim of the Germans," John Demjanjuk Jr. told the Associated Press in e-mail.

The trial already has served to refocus the attention of prosecutors on two men who have lived in Germany for years, but were never pursued.

In July, prosecutors charged 89-year-old Samuel Kunz, an ethnic German, of accessory to the killing of 430,000 Jews while he was allegedly a guard at the Belzec death camp, and with 10 counts of murder for unspecified "personal excesses." Mr. Kunz was supposed to testify at the Demjanjuk trial, but then backed down after learning he was under investigation himself.

Prosecutors are also investigating the case of another Ukrainian, Alex Nagorny, who testified as a witness at the trial. They are trying to determine whether he is the same person as a Nagorny implicated by witnesses as a guard who took part in killing people in Treblinka.

Since the Demjanjuk trial started, two other elderly suspects under investigation have died before their cases could be brought to court.

-cut-

It's as I stated earlier; it's really about the crimes of today.


Edited by onegreenday (10/11/10 04:40 PM)
_________________________
Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle
or great intelligence. Robert F. Kennedy

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#1666536 - 10/11/10 05:55 PM Re: Noam Chomsky’s book ‘Fateful Triangle’ [Re: onegreenday]
davidmalmolevine Offline
Ganja God
***

Registered: 09/17/99
Posts: 21454
Loc: BC
"You (Israel)still want nazi blood (current prosecution)"

Where do I say that? You should try quoting me rather than continuing to argue with your own imaginary version of me.

Not every Jew wants Nazi blood ... not every Jew is in support of Israel.

I would rather (and have written so many times) that the SPONSORS of the Nazis not be allowed to continue get away with war profiteering ... I could care less about what those old Nazi's get away with, it's what Bayer is currently doing that I have problems with:

http://www.potshot.ca/pm/index.php?n=Main.Potshot19
_________________________
"making the earth a common treasury for all, both rich and poor." Gerrard Winstanley; April 20, 1649

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