rol1, thanks for the post!

A couple of thoughts came immediately to mind, along with a few questions. The ideas first, then the questions... no, mixed together as interrelated...

I'm trying to "see" your system right now... I'm getting a little confused where you discuss PVC "T's"... I see two 6" diameter x 6' long pipes running horizontally, where one pipe is 12" above the other pipe and the ends are looped together with 6" PVC elbows- assuming the top pipe has slight slope to assist in water run-off/circulation. So, there is a conitunous, closed loop of 6" diameter piping, occupying approximately 7' of width x 2' of height.

What are the "T's"? Are these spaced apart on the top pipe oriented upwards where you plan to put the plants (port holes, if you will)? As such, the bottom pipe would be one solid piece, and the top pipe a whole bunch of T's & small straight pieces sealed together, assuming 6"-12" on-centers. Is this correct?

If so, and if I interpreted your post correctly, you plan to have the nebulizer heads inside the top pipe, residing in a miniature reservoir that will be fed by a pump (nutes & pump in bottom pipe) & utilize a float valve within the mini-resv to ensure water levels over the heads by 1/8".

I immediately see complications with housing enough solution in the mini-resv. This will entirely depend upon the number of heads you are using & the size of those heads.

First thought, why not have the heads reside in the bottom pipe with the nute solution. At 6" diameter x 6' in length & filled 1/2 the way with solution, there would be approximately 1000 cubic inches of solution or 4.3 liquid gallons. I'm running six 20mm ultrasonic disks 24/7 at the rate of 5 gallons every 26 hours, to give you a comparative for consumption levels...

Also, I'm curious as to where you got the 1/8" water level over the nebulizer disks from...? Most of the units I have run across utilize an auto shut-off sensor to maintain proper water levels. If you do not have any water over the heads, they will simply burn out & fail to work. Also, they list the "ideal" water level over the heads to be appx 1-1/2", which seems to correspond to the height of the plastic handle, which may be the water level sensor working off of pressure.

Don't know how this sensor actually works or where it is. On mine, the rubber "handle" sticks up from the center of the head. It's a 1/4" diameter rubber rod that has a 1/2" diameter ball at the top, all coated in or made of rubber. There is a little red light on top of the head designating power flow. When the water gets to the bottom of the ball, it shuts off...

I made a mistake on one of my previous posts... don't go to <greenair.com> to find a distributor of ultrasonic foggers... my bad. They just resell the Frappa system.

The distributor I was thinking of is at <oceanmistmakers.com>. They have a multitude of foggers, including the ones that are supplied with the NM systems... You can basically pick & choose based upon output needs.

Also, I believe they offer the Teflon coated disks, which apparently makes a difference, though I have no real comparison to draw from. I've found other mentions that build-up was a problem with nebulizers, but I don't really see it with mine. Depending upon your mix (fully soluble only), there will be a minor accumulation of what appears to be a yellow or light brown slim on the disks. Q-tip it every 5-7 days, if you even notice much of a build-up, again, depending upon mix. Apparently the Teflon coating is the difference...

Anyway, they have a little bit of info as well, & when comparing products you can get a better feel for differing features...

Back to the bottom pipe, have your heads in there & use the provided float buoy (through ocean mist). This may provide complications however as you could only fill the pipe 1/2, maybe 2/3 of the way full. Depending upon how deep the float buoy & head is, it may bottom out relatively soon because the pipe is curved. So, out of the 4-5 gallons you have in there, maybe 2 of it is "effective" as the pipe will need to be filled or run the risk of the nebulizer's auto shut-off engaging. Does this make sense?

So, you may want to run another 10g reservor to the side, or bigger for added convenience between mixes & fills. Gravity feed with float valve inside bottom pipe... no pumps at all.

But, if you intended to hybrid-NFT it, then you may have been right on, and you may have to do from necessity. Would still house the nebulizers in the bottom pipe though. You will just need to incorporate a circulatory fan, which I was going to suggest regardless.

It seems to me that you were already moving in this direction anyway, due to oxygen replenishment concerns & clearing out gaseous residues of the plant roots. Any small computer-type fan will work, one that has a variable power adaptor would be best as you can adjust air flow. Then just put tiny vent holes (one 1/2" hole, maybe two would be all that you would need + you can tape them partially closed to micro-adjust). Also, some air/mist will escape through where the plant stalks enter the system.

At some point in your piping (I'd suggest one of the 90 elbow corners for the top pipe) you could replace with a "T". On the new open end that sticks out, you could place your fan. Just make sure to seal around the sides of the fan housing to the inside walls of the pipe. This will prevent any leaking of fog back through the fan housing, which very probably will cause salt build-up & corrosion.

It does seem that your recirculating within a closed system is a very good idea. The tiny vent hole(s) will not significantly alter this, in my opion based upon recent experiences. A certain amount of fog is escaping for sure, but the vast majority pools inside the trays. When I bumped up from a 3 head to the 6 heads, now that made a difference in fog density, but it is still not enough...

I collect the condensate from within the tubes utilizing a "catch"- 3way pvc joint with a soaked cloth filter that keeps the fog in the tubes, but allows for the collected water to pass into a tray that I check & toss. I've noticed the pH rises from 5.8 in the NM tank to 6.4 in the catch. PPM's hold relatively tied though slightly lower in the catch, say 550 in the tank and 535 at the catch.

I also have to spray H202 through the tubes every week to keep the fungi from growing, despite treating all nute solution to enter the system. So, I don't really know if the H2O2 remains stable through nebulizing and thus rendering ineffective... Regardless, I think the growth is altering my ppm & pH readings here.

The point being that all of my evidence supports the fact that pure condensate will be of the same relative chemical composition & balance as when nebulized. There is the exception that I have noted before in that the ppm count rises in the NM tank at a constant rate of 2-3pt every hour, but the catch water is relative to the NM tank water. I'm considering to have solution samples sent for analysis to see exactly why my ppm's are rising in the NM tank...

Check out the Ocean Mist site. Let me know if any of this helps...

Also, how are you going to get inside the bottom pipe if you need to do any maintenance or simply to observe for proper operation? Something to consider at least...

I don't have a drawing program to show you what I mean yet, or I can't use the Qcad program I do have. I'm downloading something easier, I hope.

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Also, I'm curious as to where you got the 1/8" water level over the nebulizer disks from...? Most of the units I have run across utilize an auto shut-off sensor to maintain proper water levels. If you do not have any water over the heads, they will simply burn out & fail to work. Also, they list the "ideal" water level over the heads to be appx 1-1/2", which seems to correspond to the height of the plastic handle, which may be the water level sensor working off of pressure.

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I had found some single nebulizer discs that had a wire for the sensor just above the discs that when the water level dropped below the level of the wire the unit would shut off. It was like the ones in mist fountains, but without the LEDs.

The purpose of the cup was to keep the level constant without having to regulate the water level. By having the disc at the right level below the top of the cup it will maintain the right depth with the excess falling over the edge.

I don't mean to stand the pipes one above the other. Think of two loops, the loop on the bottom with no fall will be able to use both sides of the loop and the cross pieces for reservoir which should allow around 20 gallons.

The end where the pump will be has the T with the straight through going to the 90's glued to the 6' pieces. The side opening of the T will be pointed straight up.

Another T will be glued above that with a 6" piece of pipe to join them. This T will be stood up with the straight through part going up and down with the side opening going to the left.

Another piece of pipe to couple another T with the straight through part vertical. You will be able to look down through both vertical T's and see the bottom of the horizontal T.

Out of the upper right facing T will be another short piece into the 90, to a 6' piece, to another 90 with a short piece, to another 90, to another 6' piece coming back the other side, to another 90, with another short piece connecting to the other left facing vertical T.

You can dry fit the upper loop to see that the 90's give a continuous drop around the loop. You will need to have a couple of blocks or something to support the end opposite the T's.

You can even build a frame with wheels to cradle the lower loop reservoir and move it from room to room or outside.

The upper loop will have 3 1/2" holes drilled with a hole saw like in the Aero Pipe Dreams" thread to support the net pots. Aero Pipe Dreams with pics.

Then with the discs in the upper loop the run off goes around the loop and falls back into the lower loop reservoir.

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even when the root zone is a comfy 72F. So, I can reason that this temp is not the culprit...

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In the great outdoors, the root zone seldom gets above 55 deg. F. The temps you are reading makes me think that disolved o2 is lacking from the mist. Also, you mentioned that you are at 300ppm with the nutes. That seems a little low to me but a lot of that depends on the plants.

I understand that Wet Betty is a wetting agent, it will not increase the droplet size to any appreciable extent but will break down the surface tension of the water so it will coat the rootball better.

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the elevated solution temps in the NM tank are a non-issue as long as combined vapor temps entering the root chamber isn't greater than 72-74F...

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Don't forget that as the temps rise the dissolved o2 is decreased. With res temps in the 80s or 90s you have almost no disolved o2 in the mix. I don't believe that the short time that the nutes are in the air will change this appreciably.

The temps of the atmosphere around the plants seems a little high as well. With lower temps and humidity, the plants needs for extreme water uptake and rapid transpiration is limited.
As far as I can tell, these are the issues.

Peace...
FRED

I believe that with the system he's talking about is the fact that thr roots are suspended in air so the mist itself is to deliver the nutes to the roots but you are right about the temps

It also sounds like a good reason to get a good battery backed up power supply like they got for computers.

Thanks for the continued interest guys.

In regards to the DO (dissolved oxygen), it is my understanding that the relative temperature of water is indicative of the total oxygen that has been disolved within the water solution. If you will, you literally have oxygen molecules suspended within the water mixed with the water moleculues, and whatever other molecules may be present.

Another point on DO, the greater the surface area of water available, the greater the contact points for oxygen to mix into the water. Again, this is highly dependent upon relative temperatures as a means to hold the oxygen within the water. Also, agitation (aeration) greatly assists in surface contact between the water & free oxygen molecules. So, this is why air stones work.

Now, as this pertains to the nebulizer, yes the temps in the NM tank will vary between 84-100F. And yes, once the solution temps rise in excess of 60's, the total DO that the mix is able to hold decreases dramatically.

However, the nebulizer discs greatly agitate the water when it forms the fog... much more so than any air stone I have seen. Also, there is a fan that is pulling air from the room into the NM tank, mixing with the fog, and dispensing to the root chambers. All in all, you have a tremendous amount of oxygen mixed with the fog, which was agitated in formation to begin, and undoubtably, the oxygen molecules will attach to the water vapor while in transit. I beleive the free oxygen may attach directly to the roots as well, though don't know this from research...

Combined with the fact that I treat with H2O2, in theory, it would appear that oxygenation is not a concern for my particular application.

I agree that temps in the root zone around 80F (air pumped in at this temp), seems to slow growth. And yes, as temps rise & air circulation increases to accomodate lowering humidity, transpiration is increased & even exacerbated considering the problems I am having supplying enough water as is. There is confusion for me though as some sources suggest root zone media is beneficial to 82-84F, where reaching 100F is definitely detrimental. Any validation to these claims? Also, if you can keep ambient to 70-71F, the NM tank water rises to 88F, and the fog entering the chamber is around 68F.

By the way, I was running nute counts so low due to issues with root destruction & salvage. Now that things have returned, I am running approximately 725 total ppm count with 15/15/15 Tri Flex for 5 gallons of RO with 120ml H2O2 & 5 ml of CalMag+ as TF already is fortified. The root spray concoction is similar with additional of Wet Betty, Jump Start & Pro Silicate.

Oddly, I mostly show P & K deficiencies (not severe), so running transitional mix now. The Wet Betty seems to coagulate in the solution so I am only foliar spraying. Also, the Pro Silicate seems to leave a silvery sedimentation that floats evenly in the solution. So, I don't add that to the reservoir either. I've really tried mixing carefully as to not encourage precipitation...

Let me know if you want more... Best!

Fred,

By the way, after spot checking this site here & there, I've identified you as a person of repute. So, don't take the responses as being combative on my part. I was simply stating the information as I understood it, with respect to the inquiries.

I wanted to share a recent development that occurred the day before as it actually pertains to temps.

And by the way, Fred, I would like for you to better inform me on root zone & other micro-climate temps/conditions, should you have the time or interest... I'd resect any & all comments. Same thing goes Cypher & rol1...

Upon actually sleeping (my body gave up & went through 3 or 4 alarms where I discovered 7 hours had passed), I awoke in the middle of the night where the fans & windows had been left wide open, full power going (yes, scrubbers & flow/timing usually controlled for). When I got in there (still couldn't see straight), here's the data:

Air in @ 56F
Mother Ambient @ 59-61F, depending upon source
Reservoir Temp @ 59F
NM 6-heads @ 88F
Canopy Temps @ 64-67F, depending upon tray
NM Fog Out @ 62F
Fog / Root Zone Temps @ 60-61F, both air/fog, net cups & trays

*By the way, unless I run humidifiers (big ones & a lot), it is impossible for me to keep humidity levels beyond the existing average of 27-33%. At times it is as high as 44% & as low as 21% when at high air exchange. So, keep this in mind, in that humidity levels are always working against my transpirational issues...

Anyway, the plants looked pretty damn good. I was expecting complete drooping, across the board. However, with the exception of a few, they all had rigidity. Within the root zone, though not heavily saturated, the roots were at least soft to the touch, and a few had condensate.

I ran the same situation again, though the temps averaged 5F higher than listed above, the plants didn't respond as well. The averages I listed above are a full 10-11F below what my previous set points were at.

Hand watering is still necessary, seemingly, but at a much lower rate... say once 3 hours into it, then 3 more times (every 3-4 hours) and once more at night. Beats the hell out of every 1.5-2 hours. Also, with the lower temps, this average may still be lower still (say 3 times a cycle), considering my 7 hour event...

Glad to admit where I'm wrong, and it appears I was way off on my root zone temps. I promise, several sources were utilized to set my target points, and your simple observation of lower root zone temps made an observable difference... for the better.

Problem becomes in maintaining such averages (especially once HPS's employed)... CO2 might simply be out of the question, insofar as a generator is concerned...

The coir in the one tray is doing better. It had a layer of existing roots that simply layed atop the mat initially, and even now. However, other roots have begun to grow into the mat & those plants are definitely on the up side of things. I'm hand watering the same due to exposed roots, but had I started earlier, I speculate I could get away with twice a day...

Not very scientific as it was necessary for me to alter multiple variables at once, so finding a direct tie between cause & effect is difficult. But the above seems rather obvious...

Best & would love some feedback, even if in the form of questions that get me thinking outside the box...

these nebulizers were experemented with years ago, and found undesirable. I have always built my own hydroponic contraptions myself. But true areoponics is 30% faster than traditional hydroponics. I have seen a bunch of homemade aeroponics contraptions lately. But these are not going to have the explosive growth as the N.A.S.A. project. For one they were using 90 psi of air on nozzels.

Thanks! I've found some regarding the NASA experiments, e.g., www.biocontrols.com (I believe that's the one that advertises the stuff). However, I have not been able to find access to the actual research methodologies & data. Any way you can help...?

Any info you can offer would be appreciated. I've been told that gravity was a major consideration in fog production, but seems reasonable that with air ciculation, this is mitigated.

A concern I have has to do with introducing a fan source that does not introduce external air, thus requiring a port vent & releasing some fog. Any suggestions on a fan that can be run continuously in a high (100%) humidity environment? Perhaps some rigging will be required to keep condensate off, but...

Also, and forgive me for delving into the already touched upon in the wide world, but in regards to misting...

This is based upon memory, so my numbers may be off here & there, but the point will be made. The "dry"/nebulizer fog is averaged at 5 microns. We've established problems associated with this size... I believe "wet", natural fog is around 15 microns in size, which condenses easily such as morning dew...

Varying spray nozels out there can be from 15-120+ microns in size. The versions of the EZ Clone & AeroFlo's that I have seen, essentially spray direct water onto the roots, thereby negating any purported benefits of micro-sized feeding. Even the roots look different.

Am I in accordance with your understanding of things so far? If not, please correct me...

Regarding micron size, too small is evidently possible at 5, lest some medium compromise can be made. Coir is looking good right now by the way... I've seen many advertisements of micron sizing to plant benefit.

What would be the "best" in size for roots, in your experience? Produce misters seem next to ideal (believed to be around 20-30 microns), even something slightly smaller would be best. However, I understand that a great deal of problems are associated with clogged misters & lines along with the high pressure pumps & large reservoirs. Of course depending upon recycling or not, additional problems... trying my best to not recycle if at all possible.

Can you turn me on to more stuff to research or consider? Thanks a lot!

It has been a while since my last post and since I am at the end of my experiment with the Nutramist, a final update might be of interest...

First and foremost... do not purchase this system. There are several independent reasons for this statement, but the most important is that it does not work. One cannot sustain growth by solely feeding with the ultrasonic foggers. They simply do not provide enough water to meet the plants transpiration needs.

You can start seedlings & cuttings with the fog rather well. Both can keep a saturated rockwool cube or coir evenly moist if left on 24/7, and the new roots are adequately supplied. You cannot sustain this once they start vertical growth however. You must transplant to another feeding system.

On this point, it was my experience that once the fine root hairs are damaged (by touch, by air drying, or by transplanting), they are not going to return. So, once you transplant the starts, the fine feeder hairs are going to be damaged & you will not see them again. I was not able to sustain these hairs by any method of feeding outside of the first few weeks of seed or cutting starts. There is no benefit to these hairs as advertised by the manufacturer as you will never sustain them.

The ultrasonic head also broke within 3 months of continuous use, where fog output was also diminished after this time of operation just prior to shorting out. The transducer disks wear out rather fast (3 months) and the actual nebulizer is shotty in construction. The stainless coating begins to flake off into the solution, the rubber coating actually hardens & flakes, and the unit itself actually shorted out internally and no longer runs. Also, there are inconsistencies in how the unit is actually put together... differences between each that noticeably affected fog output. You have to tweak each unit to get optimal output.

Also, the manufacturer did not respond in a professional manner & refused to warranty the parts.

At best, these units can be used to start seedlings & cuttings, where additional benefit may be realized in basic humidification. You have to overcome hurdles even to do this however, and once the units break, that's it.

If anyone truly desires to complement a different feed system with ultrasonic fog, get the component parts on your own (www.oceanmistmakers.com) and bypass the Nutramist headache entirely. Even if you take this advice, the foggers are still problematic & time intensive, regardless of where you get them.

I couldn't get them to work after considerable & concerted efforts. This recommendation is truly meant to help you avoid some serious frustration along with time & monetary loss...

Best luck all!