First of all I would like to say I do believe in science and we have come along way because of it. However I believe on the kind of science that is based on fact rather then theories and speculations. Evolution has not by far been proven. Darwin said that in years to come there would be fossils to prove the gradual change of man. That has yet to be seen. Darwin himeself was aware of the colassal holes of his theory. Scientists/Chemists have yet to succeed in reproducing natures experiments on the creation of life out of nonliving matter.

Robert Jastrow(Astronomer) said "Its hard to accept the evolution of the human eye as sa product of chance: it is even harder to accept the evolution of the human intelligence as the product of random disruptions in the brain cells of our ancestors."

I have SO many reasons why I believe the way I do about Evolution vs. Creation. Most of it just doesn't add up and make logical sense. And I am ALL about logic people!

However if you people want to believe you came from Apes, then so be it! I agree to disagree and realize that by my doing so I am part of the minority rather then the majority. It is a place and state of mind that I am accustomed to being in with my fellow man and I am comfortable with it. I never been one to base my decisions based on popular trends or beliefs. I constantly challenge my beliefs and keep my mind open to the probabilty that they can be proven otherwise. The fact is God hasn't been proven either. I dunno about you but I have yet to see him roaming about in the clouds making sure we do what he told us in the bible to do, but if anyone of you bible thumpers see run into him, tell him this, Boy does AmericusMe have a bone to pick with YOU!

I do believe in creation however, and who knows maybe we are just some science project for some extremely intelligent creatures out there in the galaxy(kind of like how we view ants in a jar). Actually I find this comforting, because sometimes when I look at my fellow man and see how we are treating each other as well as the beautiful planet in which we live, frankly I'm ashamed. My whole life I thought it was a mistake and that I was left here by accident, sort of like E.T. AH? In anycase, I am just waitin for my ride man *toks* Yeah get me the fuck up outta here these people are CRAZY!

Further intersting Quotes to ponder:

"Evolution became in a sense a scientific relition; almost all scientists have accepted it and many are prepared to 'bend' their observations to fit in with it" -H.S. Lipson(Physicist)

"For life to have been a chemical accident on earth is like looking fora particular grain of sand on all the beaches in all the planets in te universe-and finding it." -Chandra Wickeramasinghe(Professor at University College, Cardiff)

"The distictness of specific [living] forms and their not being blended together by innumerable transitional link s is a very obvious difficulty." -Charles Darwin

"If numerous species...have really started into life at once, the fact would be fatal to the theory of evolution."
-Charles Darwin

Peace Love and Ganja!

i think i agree with you totally. i also am not sure about many things, like "how do we end war?". that question and the other BIG one, "what's the meaning of life" are ones i think about all of the time and fail to see a worthy solution. mostly because, when there is dissagreement between two strong minded parties, suffering often results from it.
there is also feeling involved. i believe that the world is going to expand in an amazing way very soon. i don't know what or how, but it is what i feel. my religion, it seems, is going with my intuition. believing in feelings that enter my head from wherever for whatever reason.
enough about my pastime, the question remains, "what is the solution to the current global state of war, famine, overpopulation, pollution, and the on-going extinction of species?"
communism didn't work for the nazis' and it isn't going to work for the US. enforcement requires "force" for the word to exist, so that doesn't work either. we need to learn the simple actions that should be taken to curb the damage that we do to the earth and our fellow lifeforms. inhibiting damaging behavior will only work when we have control of all of our actions IMHO. i've learned that we have to go through all of the steps in order to make and maintain peace. okay? peace!

!!!!!!!!!ENERGY!!!!!!!!!!!

I personally don't see a discrepancy between evolution and the big bang. My but you're dlving into a subject and a half ! If you want a synopsis of my lowly and unifying view, I'll be glad to reply to a PM, just too lazy to spend that much time typing to maybe meet with zero interest.....LOL.

Ruckus

After all thats what we all are anyway isnt it? After we die our energy is just transfered from one body to the next. As ar as ending war i think that at the bottom of all travesties is the root of ignorence. The ignorance of the true ways and workings of reality. I believe that in every truth the opposite is equally true. For example here in america we drive on the right side of the road well isnt it also correct to say that the person to the left of you is also driving on the right side of the road hah. I beleive in evolution as much as the next man but i think it goes alot deper than beleiving the matter at hand you have to live it as well. I believe one of newtons laws states the energy cannot be created or destroyed it is only in a form that is not usable for the intended means. so to me it reminds me of the simplist cycles of all. The water cycle. Water goes down stream evaporates goes into the air as mist particles the particles are gathered together in the form of a cloud then it rains allof the particles of the cloud off back into the mountain to go downstream again and repeat the whole cycle over again. I like to think of all of life as a cycle and everything in it is a cycle. We are born into a body the body dies we are reborn (transfered) into another body. even the planets do this all to come back to there point of origin. So thats why i dont think there is any such thing as time, time repeats itself every twenty four hours on earth so why get upset about things that have to do with time. I think god is nothing more than the mighty self. just as we as selves have different personalities i believe that god whatever you want to call him is a peice of everybody, a peice of its personality. While not all of us are perfect i like to think of the self as an unpolished diamond rough. At first when found its nothing exceptional to look at but it has the ability to be cut into a mighty brilliant.

"It is not the strongest, nor the smartest of species that survives, But the one that is best to adapt to its changing environment".
Charles Darwin.

"Impermanent are all things created, Strive on with awarness"
The Gotama Bhuddas die'ng words

Peace and love

Your post is very interesting AmericusMe. I personally believe in god, yet i believe in evolution aswell (kinda messed up isn't it.) You really can't deny though, the existance of evolution. Whether you use human beings as the lens with which to study it, or you use marijuana plants. Either way you can't deny that the strongest survuve. and by being able to servive they are able to pass on there genes. That in a nutshell is how i view evolution and darwinism.

Maybe the bible is completely wrong. Maybe god created earth, but instead of creating adam and eve maybe he created the tiny little organisms that are the precursors to all life on this planet... who knows. But you are right on about keeping an open mind. Nothin has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, hell nothing has even come close to proving thse things.

About the fossils and lack of evidence that can only be discovered with time. What about the slightly different skulls that are found every year that show man in different stages of development? if you have ever seen pictures of these, or read about them you must relize how extremely different they are from the skulls of modern day homo sapians... But than again, you have to keep an open mind. All of these skulls could be of complete different species not even remotely related to humans... Who knows.

I do have one interesting theory i would like your opinion on AmericusMe. Think about this. What if the universe (not necesarily the human species, or even earth) has always been here. And i mean always. there is no beginning to it. No big bang to start life, no higgher being to start life. Life has always been here. The farther and farther you travel away from earth the older and older the universe gets. (maybe not in all directions, but i think you get my point)

Freaky theory huh :-)

i got in an evolution argument with a bible thumper at my school, in the past, i have found that christians have devised an answer that covers every argument that evolutionists throw at them.
This girl wasn't too bright, and if given a couple hours with her, im pretty sure I could convince her to renounce her faith.

Anywho, her argument was that the big bang theroy doesn't hold water, because the first atom had to come from somewhere. and that something cannot be created from nothing.

Meanwhile, shes telling me that some mystical being, whom she has no explanation where it comes from, can create universes, yet chooses to care and overlook a planet of hairless apes and concerns himself with telling them how he created the universe.

The whole concept is based on "faith". "faith" of what someone else tells you, not god, not jesus, some guy and organisation that claims to represent these beings.

Do you really want us all to cooperate together to "end war"? Or do you wish that the destruction of war could be avoided? Would you prevent weather from being so dynamic as to cause destruction of valuable property? No thunderstorms, no tornados, no hurricanes? Sounds nice(?), but life as we know it would soon thereafter become impossible--besides, I like thunderstorms. The dynamism I perceive in Nature is much like the dynamism I experience in myself. The urge to test myself by competition with others takes many forms, some martial. But the experience of the study of martial arts does not create killers, but rather it creates confident and competent warriors with the judgement and self-control required to avoid over-reaction and bullying. In short, people who appreciate peace.

Linguistically, the form of a question determines its answer. Formulate the question properly and the answer is linguistically self-evident. Think of them as matching pairs. Change a word in the question and the answer is altered.

The "problems" of overpopulation, etc. are symptoms of the ignorance and impatience of human beings. If the root causes are addressed the symptoms fall away of their own accord. There is no other proper solution path. Eliminating the pain caused by a disease condition does NOT eliminate the disease condition. Indeed it can make the condition worse: now the patient is too doped up to descend a flight of stairs safely. This is perceived as a new and unrelated problem to be addressed by providing safer stairways, etc.

Is it true that "suffering is good for the soul"?

Ben, you might want to check out some of the current theories on the origins of the Big Bang. Specifically, those of inflation (and superinflation), and M-theory (which is an attempt to meld together 4 competing theories about superstring).

Anyway, something to consider...and use on a Bible thumper. LOL.

Although the two sets of theories differ completely in their specifics, they agree on a central premise. And that premise is that, under certain "naturally occuring conditions" (well, as natural as conditions that lead to the creation of a universe can be), the chances of a Big Bang singularity event approach certainty (that's science speak for a sure deal).

Turns out that if you can spark the event in the first place (using either inflation or M-theory as the "mechanism" to create/drive the event), then thre creation of a universe is basically energy neutral. IOW if a Big Bang happens, the resulting warping of space itself generates sufficent energy to power up the entire process leading to the universe as we know it.

Beauty of both inflation and M-theory, is that there's no need to invoke some Hairy Cosmic Muffin as the cause of all this shakin' and bakin'. The process is quite natural, and since it would be seen as being open ended, it could lead to the creation of any number of universes (the multiverse scenario)

God is "nothing else than the human being, or rather, the human nature purified, freed from the limits of the individual man, made objective i.e., contemplated and revered as another, a distinct being."
--L. Feuerbach