"as a believer in Christ, I can have nothing to do with any prohibition law. As a believer in Christ, I am under a strict law of love that prevents me from doing what might harm another" Donald Grey Barnhouse


You expected something like this to come from a "brainwashed" Christian?

I dont' think you did. I think in your mind, that Christianity is a cause of prohibition, not a solution. And that simply is not true, it's a false image in your world view.

And you can have nature as your "god", but it's a small "g" god, because nature requires a cause/ creating force. Nature is within the dimensions of space time and matter. It has to be a created/ caused thing.

People who believe in god (theists) subscribe to the theistic idea that the Universe was the work of a creator-god. They say that 'god did it', and although many books have been written about the details, there are fundamental problems with the whole idea that a god created the Universe.

They say that all things must have a cause, and therefore, god exists as the 'first cause' of everything else. These people ask questions like "Who do you think created you?" and "Do you think the Universe came out of nothing... who do you think created it?". These types of questions both rely on the "everything must have a cause, therefore God exists" argument. But this argument doesn't work. Examine these points:

If god-believers say that 'everything must have a cause' and state that this means that god exists, then, they have missed a part of their declaration out. Their true belief is that "everything must have a cause, apart from God". The term for God as the cause of everything is the 'first cause', so, this is the same as saying "everything must have a cause, apart from the first cause".

God isn't a simple thing; it has thoughts, motivations (to create, to love, etc), it has powers, imagination and its thoughts are themselves ordered logically and coherently so that it can plan things and think about things in a sensible way. In short, God is quite a complicated being.

These two facts combined to produce the more accurate first-cause argument:

Theists believe that everything must have a cause, apart from the complicated self-created first-cause that has a coherent internal logic


This means that the "everything must have a cause" part of the argument must be wrong. It is not true that everything must have a cause. In a causal world, there must always be something that has no cause. There is a different word for the belief that a complicated self-created first-cause that has a coherent internal logic requires no first cause: atheism. Because if such a complicated thing can exist without a cause, then that first-cause could well be an atheistic Universe, complete with a few internal physical laws. If you argue that everything has a cause except for god, then, you might as well argue that everything has a cause except the universe, and admit that there is no need to theorize that God exists. So if you accept the first-cause argument then it does not prove that God exists, but instead it proves that the Universe could be without a creator at all.

Some theists argue that God is eternal and was therefore never created. But I find this is an argument that can be used in conjunction with Big Bang theory to prove, again, that god is not likely to exist as a first cause. According to some Big Bang theories there has been an infinite number of cycles of Big Bang / Big Crunch (where the Universe ends in a big black hole after contracting, before exploding again) and that the Universe has existed forever. If it is possible for something to exist forever and not need a cause then it is likely to be the Universe, not God, and once again we can theorize that this is likely to be true because there would be no reason for god if it was true that something could exist with no cause.

but you see, you sidestep REALITY when you thik that this universe can be self starting. Matter cannot come "out of nothing" without a cause. SPace cannot come "out of nothing" without a cause. A succession of moments cannot come "out of nothing". All of these things in our universe are tangibly REAL, physical, substance, etc.
These things cannot exist outside that laws of the physical universe. All of this "something" could not come from "nothing".

And it's not complicated to understand a Creator God. GOd is a spirit, which CAN be self-starting, exist outside the dimension of time, and is a substance that is not tangible matter.
-It makes perfect sense; God is Spirit, Truth, Love. These things exist beyond our universe, and it is these essences that caused our universe.

And one point, God MUST be simple in his ontos. He doesn't experience a succession of moments, he is beyond the dimension of space and matter. He must be these things in order for him to be God. If he isn't, then there is likely a higher creating/causing force above him.

But I would continue that our universe cannot exist forever, because it experiences a succession of moments and has ends. It cannot be self creating, because that would deny the physical laws of our universe.
And I would argue that "God" can be self starting and exist forever. It doesnt' deny any physical laws of our universe.

So in other words our universe cannot exist with no cause, but God CAN exist with no cause.

This is pointless .If you want to convert people PROVE God exists or thats the end of it .

Oh, I thought the whole point was to start an argument to see who's god is more of a badass

OK check it out. You are saying that this space, time, matter existence has existed forever and/or caused itself.

This is a physical impossibility. What you are saying you believe is impossible and self defeating. It denies every physical law of our universe.

I am arguing that God does not exist in the dimensions of space, time or matter, and therefore CAN exist forever/ be self starting.

And that is about as solid of a proof as you get; very simple, very clear, like 2+2=4 and nothing plus nothing equals nothing.

and I'll tell you, the proof gets even more revealing when you consider this non space non matter non time being creating these dimensions and reaching down into them. What has been revealed TO US makes it even more clear.


and by the way, My God's got the biggest G on the block!!!

God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all
God is love
God is Truth
God is Spirit

It's hard to imagine how something could exist that has no beginning and no end. But we can rephrase the question so that it becomes clearer, and irrelevant.

What's the beginning or the end of a circle or a sphere? We can't rationalize a circle or a sphere, because its curvature is perfectly pure. No matter how many times you magnify it and divide it down, it's still curling. It cannot be described by mathematics, except for by approximation. Pi is an approximation because it is not a finite number. It cannot be written down. But we have no problem visualizing a circle in our minds. If someone asked you where's the beginning of it, you would think the question is foolish.

see, the circle I draw is more of a sphere, it's 3 dimensional. it's called "our existence" It consists of the dimensions space time and matter.

What is outside the sphere of our existence, beyond space time and matter? The Ontos of God.