so what if the person:

1. exercises daily (heavy cardio and maybe some weight lifting)

2. eat nothing but vegetables and fruits. (no fat diet)

3. stop smoking during the dieting time.

so, if the thc gets stored into the fat cells then, eating a fat free diet would stop adding to the fat content of the body. the exercise would help burn off the existing fat in the body. this would be a pretty difficult diet/exercise regime. but it would help to get rid of the thc in the body.

i see home test kits at the pharmacy. do those work like pregnancy tests? pee on the applicator and see if the thing turns blue? or do you have to send the sample to a lab for testing?

if it is a "home kit" then you can determine for yourself how long it takes for thc to clear from your system.

just a thought.

-blue skies

Yeah, the home test kits are do-it-yourself. I'd almost pay for someone to try this, 'cause hey, if there's some unknown mechanism by which you can pass a drug test in days instead of months, that would be awesome.

Almost pay. I saw my doc 45 minutes ago for a refill on my scrips, and I couldn't help but bring this topic up. His words to whoever attempts to pass this way? "Good luck." This is someone with a PhD.

Well, the OP being 5'11 and 220, if he has 60lbs of fat on him, that's kinda nasty.

Anyways, if you can scientifically DISPROVE it, by all means, otherwise until I see it put into practical test too NOT show any benefit in increasing the rate at which cannibinoids are removed from the body, I stand by it being a potential option.



Funny once someone else suggests it, you seem interested in it's merit.

Have you considered your doctors skepticism may be that a person who may have shown limited motivations and has a history of drug abuse, can actually dedicate themselves to that kind of positive lifestyle change, and maintain the regimen that would be required, more so than that it could actually work?

*sigh* and it was such a wonderful birthday. Oh wait, that was yesterday. Nevermind.



Can you scientifically PROVE it? Why should the burden of proof be on me? You're making big claims, big claims require big evidence. I think I did a pretty good job explaining why it won't work, given what we currently know, to someone who perhaps doesn't remember grade 9 chemistry. Just explain to me, like a 14-year-old, HOW your theory works. A potential option? Sure, in the same way quartz crystals are a potential option for curing cancer, some say it works, but they can't say how and there's no proof.



That 60 pounds of fat is me, sorry for introducing confusion. I am though 6'4" with a very wide skeleton, but I can't hide it all, meh.



I don't see any merit in it. Go back and re-read. Gawd, it's not all about you.



Wow, where does this come from? I printed out this thread (everything up until 10:30AM), he read it, he was amused. If someone like me tried this, I might get a drop in urine concentration of like 5%. Take off the extra 15% lost naturally just by waiting long enough to do the regime, and you're still way above the cut-off.

Eagerly awaiting the next installment, I've had a few beers and bowls, this actually seems fun now.

I have to admit, my organic chemistry is lacking, so if there's something obvious I'm missing like you seem to think, enlighten us.

The burden of proof is on the skeptic, always. Without study/proof/reference in one way or the other way can cyclically argue all day long.

If you can actually draw up the numbers based on height/weight/body-fat% to see what amount would be required(Yes, you've admitted there would be a 5% drop! (is that weekly, monthly, etc, and based on exactly how much work, and what kind of caloric intake/diet) how much more would it take to achieve a sufficient percentage to "pass" the drug test)

I'm sure at this point you see the hypocrisy in your argument, how nothing but time will do, even though you say there will be a potentially significant (and 5% IS significant) change.

Darkorpse, I have to thank you. Really I do. I have learned so much in the last 24 hours, tracking down this and that publication (most weren't relevant, but all were interesting), assembling it all into something coherent. And brushing up on my math skills, and learning a few new tricks in Excel. I owe it to you for lighting a fire under me. *However*, if you don't like what I now have to say, go do 24 hours of research and computer modelling before telling me why.



When the skeptic is skeptical of established theories, perhaps. It sounds like you believe any theory is valid until disproven by double-blind studies? Doesn't work that way, someone claims to have discovered / made something new, they have to prove it, show how it works, so others can try it and see if it works for them too. THIS IS WHY I keep asking you how your theory works! And since you want me to do all the work, I can only plug in the numbers if you spell it out for me.

So I'm going to assume your regimen would be something like this, and that we're trying it on me:

- I learn I have to pass a test in, say, 1 week, or 4 weeks, or 6 weeks (see below). I quit now.
- I exercise, losing 1 kg of fat tissue for every 7700 calories I burn
- I drink as much water as possible to help flush out what gets released
- I eat no fat, no simple carbs, only vegetables and legumes
- Then I carb load (maybe fat as well?), gaining 1 kg of fat tissue for every 7700 calories I eat
- And then I take the test

There are a number of ways this could play out. First, let's ask the scientists what they know.

THC concentrations in the fat tissue of recent cannabis users ranges from 0.4-193 ng/g (1). I'm going to use myself in these examples. I'm a heavy chronic user, I haven't gone a day without it in 2 years. Let's say I'm near the top of that range, 150 ng/g. About 23% of my body mass is fat tissue, a total of 27 kg. My body therefore contains 4,050,000 ng of THC, or to put it another way, 4.05 mg.

It takes up to 77 days for a chronic user's urine to drop below 20 ng/ml (2), starting from a background high of 300 ng/ml (after acute exposure has worn off) (4). A chronic user's background blood level is about 45 ng/ml (3), therefore the ratio of fat concentration to blood concentration is about 4 to 1. Urine starts out about 6 times higher than blood, but drops much more slowly than blood, still showing concentrations of 75-100 ng/ml when blood has dropped to 1 ng/ml (4). It basically follows an exponential curve.

We now have enough information to start calculating the back and forth of the equilibrium states and elimination rates.

It should also be noted that 3 months to become undetectable is apparently now considered incorrect, the average is something more like 77 days, assuming a testing cut-off of 20 ng/ml (eg: for a high-risk job). Considerably less if the cut-off is the more typical 50 ng/ml.

HERE is where we now venture into your theory, as implemented to the best of my understanding of what you have said so far, as applied to my body type and cannabis usage. Everyone reading should understand, I do not know for fact that you can or cannot pass this way, but I think the charts are rather interesting - you could, with enough advance notice, possibly shave a week off. POSSIBLY - and it all hinges on rapid weight gain.

I plugged all the numbers into Excel, and these charts spat back out (after much formula fondling). Let's have a look (blue = passive detox, red = active detox, vertical axis in ng/mL in urine, horizontal time in days):



Here we see an attempt to pass a test in 7 days by exercising 5 days, burning 2000 calories per day more than I eat, then pigging out for 2 days, eating 2000 calories more than I burn. Fail. Optimistically, even if I timed it just right, I'm still way over the cut-off.



Here I've got a whole month to prepare, so I slug it out every day, 2000 calories a day, for 3 weeks, then eat like a pig, 2000 calories extra per day, for 1 week. Fail. I will concede it was close though, perhaps a starvation diet and then a pure fat diet might improve the odds. A lot to go through just to shave off 7-10 days though.



I wondered what would happen if I had 6 weeks notice of a test, but was only willing to put 1 week into the actual hard work. Still have to quit for the whole time, but only slugging it out then pigging out for 1 week, the 6th week. Possibly pass. Looks kinda close. And that's only a pass if over-eating really sequesters that much CBs. And heck, one more week and I'd pass anyway.

I hope you enjoyed my exploration of the topic, heck, this could be a win for you, depending on how you look at it. I just had fun learning it all.

Cheers,

---

(1) Biomed Chromatogr. 1989 Jan;3(1):35-8, Determination of delta 1-tetrahydrocannabinol in human fat biopsies from marihuana users by gas chromatography-mass spectrometry, Johansson E, Norén K, Sjövall J, Halldin MM.

(2) Clin Pharmacol Ther. 1985 Nov;38(5):572-8, Excretion patterns of cannabinoid metabolites after last use in a group of chronic users, Ellis GM Jr, Mann MA, Judson BA, Schramm NT, Tashchian A.

(3) http://www.nhtsa.gov/People/injury/research/job185drugs/cannabis.htm (multiple publications referenced within)

(4) http://norml.org/pdf_files/Review_biologic_matrices_indicators_cannabis_use.pdf (multiple publications referenced within)

Hey spectral, have to admit I skimmed through that, but the numbers your showing definitely prove potential. Did you test the formula with different numbers of calories burned per day, I only noticed a difference in time frames, not excersize regimens.

Great information though, and I'm glad you took the time to do it! When I'm home for a bit I'll see if I can't go over it as well -- did you happen to have all the formula information?

Potential, yes... I think where we locked horns was that in your first post you suggested 1 week could be enough, and that was my original point, it couldn't be, at least for my fat ass, heh.

I still have the spreadsheet. What sort of exercise figures & timing would you like to try? I only tried 2000 calories per day because I think that's the upper limit of what I could burn / gain in a day. Might also want to try this using someone with a lower body fat percentage as an example, see what happens. Let me know.

Well, the goal is simply to cut it down as fast as possible.

My innitial suggestion was not simply ONE week of exercise, but exercise from the point you quit, untill 7-14 days before the test, with or without a period of higher caloric intake after it.

Judging from the graph, the cannibinoid level jumps with innitial exercise, proving that it is being eliminated from fat stores and pumped into the blood.

Run the graph for a realistic numbr like a 2000 calorie burn diet per day, and then something double it to see if there is a significant difference.

See what happens to the graph if you add a week of rest, does the level rise/drop/platue, if you add a week of calorie gain, say 2000 and 4000 (I know I can eat 6000 in a day without managing t burn more than 15-2200 if I try --and I'm 5'9 138lbs just for the record--

what happens if you modify the innitial persons mass, body fat %, etc.

Lot of f'n work the way you guys are going about it.

Spend $100 or less on a strap-on phony urine kit and pass your test with no notice at all.

Which is what you'd have to do if someone walked in and said "You just got picked for a random test, report to room 420 at 8am tomorrow." Or you were just involved in a serious incident and would be tested in a few hours.

Cheap at more than $100 if it saves your job or helps you get one you don't have.