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#1736833 - 03/17/12 05:52 PM Re: The collapse of American democracy [Re: davidmalmolevine]
onegreenday Offline
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In 1961 Cuba was declared "illiteracy free"
this has never been achieved in USA or Canada.

As well as universal health care in Cuba..

http://video.pbs.org/video/1898347038/

http://www.peopleofcolororganize.com/ana...ee-independent/

The leader of the Cuban Revolution, Comrade Fidel, in his historical speech on November 17, 2005, stated, I quote: “Here is a conclusion I’ve come to after many years: among all the errors we may have committed, the greatest of them all was that we believed that someone really knew something about socialism, or that someone actually knew how to build socialism”, end of quote. Hardly one month ago, exactly five years later, in his message on the occasion of International Students Day, Fidel confirmed these concepts that are still fully valid.

Originally Posted By: davidmalmolevine
"The taskmasters have attempted to gain legitimacy and support by exploiting the aura of socialist ideals and the respect that is rightly accorded them, to conceal their own ritual practice as they destroyed every vestige of socialism."

That's from the Chomsky quote that I provided a link for above. Communists claim to be socialists for the same reason that capitalists claim to have something to do with freedom - it sounds better than the reality of the situation, which is that Communism has nothing to do with socialism, and Capitalism is all about the "freedom" to be a corporate ruler or a corporate tool ... or the "freedom" to lie.

Why anyone would just take Fidel's word for something rather than find a definition of socialism and see if Cuba qualifies can only be explained by a desire to prevent actual socialism from ever existing by associating it with all sorts of Communist BS.



Edited by onegreenday (03/17/12 06:12 PM)
_________________________
Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle
or great intelligence. Robert F. Kennedy

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#1736851 - 03/17/12 08:51 PM Re: The collapse of American democracy [Re: onegreenday]
davidmalmolevine Offline
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Registered: 09/17/99
Posts: 21457
Loc: BC
Would you trade your freedom to assemble, to speak freely, to buy and sell things freely for universal health care and universal literacy?

"Economic equality alone is not social liberation. It is precisely this which all the schools of authoritarian Socialism have never understood. In the prison, in the cloister, or in the barracks one finds a fairly high degree of economic equality, as all the inmates are provided with the same dwelling, the same food, the same uniform, and the same tasks. The ancient Inca state in Peru and the Jesuit state in Paraguay had brought equal economic provision for every inhabitant to a fixed system, but in spite of this the vilest despotism prevailed there, and the human being was merely the automaton of a higher will on whose decisions he had not the slightest influence. It was not without reason that Proudhon saw in a "Socialism" without freedom the worst form of slavery. The urge for social justice can only develop properly and be effective when it grows out of man's sense of freedom and responsibility, and is based upon it. In other words, Socialism will be free or it will not be at all. In its recognition of this fact lies the genuine and profound justification of Anarchism.”
&#8213; Rudolf Rocker, Anarchism and Anarcho-Syndicalism

Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice ... Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality. - Michael Bakunin

March 13, 20120 Comments
Human Rights Activists Remain in State Security Custody
FHRC spoke with Rosaida Ramirez and Rogelio Tabio Ramirez (Jr.) in Guantanamo on March 12, 2012 and confirmed that members of the a human rights activist group affiliated with the Cuban Patriotic Union, the Cuban Resistance and Democracy Movement, including Rogelio Tabio Lopez (Rosaida’s husband) and Niorbis Rivera, remain in state security custody following their participation in a non violent demonstration on February 27.
http://www.fhrcuba.org/

Human Rights Watch is among international human rights organizations accusing the Cuban government of systematic human rights abuses, including torture, arbitrary imprisonment, unfair trials, and extrajudicial execution.[1][2][3]
Cuban law limits freedom of expression, association, assembly, movement, and the press. Concerns have also been expressed about the operation of due process. According to Human Rights Watch, even though Cuba, officially atheist until 1992, now "permits greater opportunities for religious expression than it did in past years, and has allowed several religious-run humanitarian groups to operate, the government still maintains tight control on religious institutions, affiliated groups, and individual believers."[1] Censorship in Cuba has also been at the center of complaints.[4][5] Most emigration is illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba

http://www2.fiu.edu/~fcf/humrts.html

http://www.hrw.org/americas/cuba

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/05/20/human-rights-abuse-in-cuba-canadians-should-be-alarmed/

http://filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/2010/...-dangerousness/

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/cuba

http://euobserver.com/24/29666
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"making the earth a common treasury for all, both rich and poor." Gerrard Winstanley; April 20, 1649

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#1736856 - 03/18/12 12:23 AM Re: The collapse of American democracy [Re: onegreenday]
DocSativa Offline
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Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 48
Quote:
I doubt the girl in the video is socialist or Communist as she wants to be a model. Hardly a socilaist/communist ideal...

You`re helping to make an argument against Socialism. A socialist country is one where the central government controls basically everything. They plan, control and distribute goods, with a view of having more equity distribution of labor and goods, and these countries are often led by a dictator. Here is a list of current, past and shortlived Socialist countries http://www.enotes.com/topic/List_of_socialist_countries#Non-Marxist-Leninist
Quote:
Western countries view Socialism and Communism as two distinct form of governmental economy. Concerning Socialism, it regards the welfare of its people like Capitalism does. In the sense that the wealth is redistributed the same way, while taxes would be higher. As for Communism, Western countries regards Communism as the opposite of Capitalism; in which the money itself is redistributed equally among everyone so that they may have a similar lifestyle. Whether their lifestyle is similar remains irrelevant in that sense.

Furthermore, the West views Communism as being a state run by the government for the greater good of all the people. As for those who see the difference between Communism and Socialism in the West, they view Socialism as being a state run by the government for the people
With what is known as the many faces of Socialism, people who are in truth just plain Socialists disguise that fact with all kinds of inventive descriptions like Noam Chomsky`s famous Anarcho Socialist bullshit. Even DML`Ss past praise of the Spanish Anarchist experiment sounds good on the surface, but it was far from leaderless, and it relied on a centralized power structure which would have eventually been coopted by the better funded, better armed and better organized Communist Party of Spain. Democracy is much more flexible and perfectly capable of adapting to changing circumstances. Even Canadian Socialism is failing to impress its workers. A liberal democracy does not bother me one bit, but a 50 year reign by a David Malo Castro? Fck that shit!!! OH! And capitalism in Cuba? While the poor are selling their bodies for pesos, the wealthy are raking in the other privileged class currency from tourists Located in Cuba, the largest island in the Caribbean, Havana is a bustling, tropical city with a very special charm. The city features a rich historic past, beautiful colonial architecture, and countless tourist attractions just waiting to be explored. Like many other capital cities, Havana is the heart of Cuba's political, scientific and cultural life. In the words of the American author and Nobel Prize laureate Ernest Hemingway, "In terms of beauty, only Venice and Paris surpassed Havana".

This beautiful city has been the capital of Cuba since the 16th century and it is undoubtedly one of the most interesting tourist destinations in the Caribbean. Its historic district, added to the UNESCO World Heritage List in 1982, has numerous colonial fortifications, elegant churches and mansions, as well as lovely parks and public squares.

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#1736857 - 03/18/12 01:01 AM Re: The collapse of American democracy [Re: DocSativa]
davidmalmolevine Offline
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Registered: 09/17/99
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"A socialist country is one where the central government controls basically everything."

No, that's a communist country. A socialist country is where nobody gets exploited because the actual working class - not their representatives - control things. Without direct worker control, there is no socialism.

Thanks for proving my point - illustrated by the Chomsky quote - that both capitalists and communists pretend that communism is the same as socialism - the dirty commies do it to steal the credibility of socialism, and the fuking capitalists do it to associate socialism with the crimes of communism. They both fear socialism because it means the end of hierarchy - and communists and capitalists are all about maintaining hierarchy.

If you can't bother to read Chomsky, I suggest you try reading Orwell:

http://www.george-orwell.org/Homage_to_Catalonia/index.html

... or if you're too lazy to read, try watching Orwell instead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hATC_2I1wZE
_________________________
"making the earth a common treasury for all, both rich and poor." Gerrard Winstanley; April 20, 1649

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#1736869 - 03/18/12 05:53 AM Re: The collapse of American democracy [Re: davidmalmolevine]
onegreenday Offline
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Registered: 01/12/06
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Cuba is a work in progress.

Fidel's view (at least he admits mistakes, which you won't find an Amerikan President admitting) is valid.

I quote: “Here is a conclusion I’ve come to after many years: among all the errors we may have committed, the greatest of them all was that we believed that someone really knew something about socialism, or that someone actually knew how to build socialism”,

You can't build an unfettered socialist state when you checking your soup for CIA poison.

Or build a socialist state with the Amerikan jack-boot on your financial throat.

http://www.cubaminrex.cu/Actualidad/2010/Septiembre/ReportCubavsBlockade2010-Informe2010FinalING.pdf

The embargo continues to be an absurd, illegal and morally unsustainable policy which has not fulfilled, nor will it ever fulfill, the purpose of breaking down the patriotic decision of the Cuban people to preserve their sovereignty, independence and the right to self-determination; but it generates shortages and suffering for the population, it limits and sets back the development of the country and seriously harms the Cuban economy. It is the principal obstacle to economic development in Cuba.

EDIT: Oh yah, if there was a vote of Harper, Obama
or Fidel; I vote Fidel.....


Edited by onegreenday (03/18/12 06:05 AM)
_________________________
Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle
or great intelligence. Robert F. Kennedy

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#1736888 - 03/18/12 10:32 AM Re: The collapse of American democracy [Re: onegreenday]
davidmalmolevine Offline
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Registered: 09/17/99
Posts: 21457
Loc: BC

"Cuba is a work in progress."

So was Nazi Germany.

You obviously have never been to Cuba. I have. Its a prison Island. With 100% literacy, there's no excuse not to have democracy and human rights. The government doesn't trust its own people not to be fooled by US propaganda - so it treats them like children instead.

The embargo should never be - it's how the Cuban government justifies it's authoritarianism. Of course, Cuba's authoritarianism justifies the US government's militant hatred of social programs and all things socialist. Just two groups of gangsters with their protection rackets - they need each other much more than the populations of each country need their rulers.

Down with the rulers of both countries!

"To choose one's master is not to be free!" - Jose Marti, Cuban revolutionary, claimed by both the communists and capitalists of Cuba, he would have hated both of these groups if he was alive to see them quoting him.
_________________________
"making the earth a common treasury for all, both rich and poor." Gerrard Winstanley; April 20, 1649

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#1736891 - 03/18/12 10:41 AM Re: The collapse of American democracy [Re: davidmalmolevine]
onegreenday Offline
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Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1535
Loc: Pawtucket, RI

http://video.pbs.org/video/1898347038/

Black in Latin America Cuba: The Next Revolution

I have confidence Cuba will get it right.
We can see that Cuba has inspired Venezuelas
Chavez to implement social programs in a
'social democratic' state of Venezuela.

Other S American countries will follow even though
the radical right in Honduras is flexing it's Amerikan muscle..... and assassinations to end social programs in S America.
4 S American leaders have suddenly got some form of
cancer all at once..


Edited by onegreenday (03/18/12 10:43 AM)
_________________________
Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle
or great intelligence. Robert F. Kennedy

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#1736899 - 03/18/12 01:10 PM Re: The collapse of American democracy [Re: onegreenday]
davidmalmolevine Offline
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Registered: 09/17/99
Posts: 21457
Loc: BC
"4 S American leaders have suddenly got some form of
cancer all at once.."

Chavez and who else?

It could be Fukushima related.
_________________________
"making the earth a common treasury for all, both rich and poor." Gerrard Winstanley; April 20, 1649

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#1736901 - 03/18/12 01:36 PM Re: The collapse of American democracy [Re: davidmalmolevine]
onegreenday Offline
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Registered: 01/12/06
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Loc: Pawtucket, RI
Chavez spoke of the other leaders recently.

I'll check later..

in that video doctors making less than waiters in some cases...


Edited by onegreenday (03/18/12 02:07 PM)
_________________________
Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle
or great intelligence. Robert F. Kennedy

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#1736919 - 03/18/12 09:41 PM Re: The collapse of American democracy [Re: onegreenday]
DocSativa Offline
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Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 48
Radical Right/Radical Left. How easily you dismiss Chavez`s attempt to change Venezuela`s constitution to allow him to hang onto power indefinitely. You cannot build a Socialist state for the simple reason that you cannot force people to give their earnings to someone who refuses to make any effort to earn it. It`s just that simple, and that`s why Castro turned to Stalinist hardline Communism. In Cuba, history took a turn which may very well have prevented a bloody civil war between two diametrically opposed Socialist ideologies. El Che` was very disgusted that Castro had formed an alliance with the CP of the Union of Soviet Socialist States because he favored the Maoist Communist ideologies. He left Cuba to export revolution and at every turn all he met was resistence from the respective leaders of every Left Wing Radical leader of any revolutionary movement he joined forces with. Even Socialist authors have speculated for quite some time about Che` Guevara as to whether he would have continued down the path of being a dedicated selfless leader of a so called true Socialist state, or whether he, like Fidel Castro from the outset would have succumed to the desire to be the capo di tutti capi because the desire to obtain absolute power is very hard to resist the longer someone remains in a powerful position with a large and enthusiastic following, and even Socialists know that is a proven fact. In 2005: Forbes magazine lists Castro among the world's richest people, estimating his net worth at $550 million. In 2006, Forbes increases his estimated worth to $900 million; Castro denies that he benefits from an empire of state-owned enterprises.Poor poor Fidel. Nobody takes a shit in Cuba if Castro makes a law against shitting. He had absolute control of Cuba`s wealth when Forbes accurately pinned the tail on his socialist ass, and he`s also got all the guns to make sure his dictates are followed. The mistakes Castro made he will never, ever own up to. The very first mistake he made was to nationalize both American and Cuban holdings. That caused the best and brightest Cubans to evacuate their homeland; very few nations can survive a brain drain on the scale that Cuba suffered under Castro`s hostile takeover. No brains, no wealth. No wealth, no chance of lifting the poor out of poverty. Redistribute the wealth, and the wise will eventually recover the wealth. There is no such place called Utopia. If anyone`s interested, here`s a link to The Devil`s excrement.... http://devilsexcrement.com/ The Devil's Excrement
Observations focused on the problems of an underdeveloped country, Venezuela, with some serendipity about the world (orchids, techs, science, investments, politics) at large. A famous Venezuelan, Juan Pablo Perez Alfonzo, referred to oil as the devil's excrement. For countries, easy wealth appears indeed to be the sure path to failure. Venezuela might be a clear example of that.
And here is Havana Times in english http://www.havanatimes.org/ It`s really disheartening for me to live long enough to see how this island nation has truly been transformed into what really only mirrors Spanish colonialism.






Edited by DocSativa (03/18/12 09:45 PM)
Edit Reason: Not even smoking coca paste made Chavez stupid enough to not limit free speech

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