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#1735444 - 03/03/12 08:08 PM Re: NASA new data cooling! * [Re: DocSativa]
Mr Hand Offline
Ganja God
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Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 6295
Quote:
=DocSativa I find it very strange that not very many people ever discuss the benifits of global warming cycles..... dman creepy that.

And they don't want to say shit when we enter a cooling cycle like we are now. AlGore hasen't invented carbon cooling credits yet


Edited by Mr Hand (03/03/12 08:11 PM)

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#1735616 - 03/05/12 12:55 PM Re: NASA new data cooling! [Re: DocSativa]
slartibartfast Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 2631
"The sample is far too insignificant to draw any conclusions from."

- eleven years of global temperature data is significant enough to dispute any claim that we have entered a cooling period...the largest global temperature database in the world can increase the significance of the sample by reporting that over the past 120 yeas, the global land temperature increased by 0.74 degree C, and that the rate of increase per decade doubled over the past 50 years:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html#q3


"Do you not become suspicious when Anthropomorphic climate change is substituted by global warming?"

- suspicious of what? are you suggesting that there is a broad international conspiracy among climate scientists to bilk research money out of governments, by using a thesaurus?



"Am I the only one who noticed that the polar oscillation effect was made public on a broad scale this year for the first time in my memory"

- no, you are not the only one who noticed that...the term "arctic oscillation" was first coined in 1998, and it took years for this scientific slang to percolate down to the masses from the obscure professional journal in which it was first published:
http://www.agu.org/journals/ABS/1998/98GL00950.shtml



"is it also just circumstantial that Europe`s worst Winter since the second world war is being downplayed in the liberal media outlets?"

- how is reporting extreme sub-zero temperatures and death tolls 'downplaying' the issue? perhaps you are disappointed that the 'liberal media' are not jumping to your desired conclusion, using weeks of temperature data covering less than two percent of the surface of the planet...saaaay, aren't you the same guy who just called 11 years of global temperature data "far too insignificant"? there is a cold snap somewhere every year, accompanied by a blizzard of uninformed noise about global warming hoaxes:
* http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/jan-june12/othernews_01-31.html
* http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nbc-news/46222238#46222238
* http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/06/travel/europe-cold-snap/index.html



"1816 was the "Year Without a Summer" in the Northern Hemisphere. On July 4th that year in Savannah, Georgia, the high temperature was 46°F!"

- what should we conclude from anecdotal reports of the weather in georgia, on july 4, almost 200 years ago, and 34 years before the first global temperature data was officially recorded? *AGAIN*, aren't you the same guy who just called 11 years of global temperature data "far too insignificant"? there was a massive severe cold snap in the summer of 1816, but what does that say about global warming now?
the volcano emissions that contributed to the year without a summer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Tambora



"I find it very strange that not very many people ever discuss the benifits of global warming cycles..... dman creepy that."

- you should start that discussion here...i'll gladly join in, and we'll try to determine if the benefits outweigh the material, social, and human costs...i am not going to start it because i'd feel damn creepy discussing the positive side of rapidly heating up the planet, raising ocean levels, acidifying the oceans, increasing extreme weather events, displacing human/animal/bug populations, and declining fresh water sources





Edited by slartibartfast (03/05/12 03:11 PM)

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#1735654 - 03/05/12 11:57 PM Re: NASA new data cooling! [Re: slartibartfast]
davidmalmolevine Offline
Ganja God
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Registered: 09/17/99
Posts: 21457
Loc: BC
Thanks for once again decimating his BS in the crushing grip of reason. You give me hope, Slarti, that these forums can remain a place where the truth remains victorious.
_________________________
"making the earth a common treasury for all, both rich and poor." Gerrard Winstanley; April 20, 1649

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#1735800 - 03/07/12 11:33 AM Re: NASA new data cooling! [Re: davidmalmolevine]
slartibartfast Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 2631
hope is a rare earth element these days...i dunno how you keep your head above sea level after all the shit you've been through

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#1735804 - 03/07/12 12:09 PM Re: NASA new data cooling! [Re: slartibartfast]
davidmalmolevine Offline
Ganja God
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Registered: 09/17/99
Posts: 21457
Loc: BC
I'm a hope fiend.
_________________________
"making the earth a common treasury for all, both rich and poor." Gerrard Winstanley; April 20, 1649

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#1736222 - 03/12/12 01:44 AM Re: NASA new data cooling! [Re: slartibartfast]
DocSativa Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 48
[- you should start that discussion here...i'll gladly join in, and we'll try to determine if the benefits outweigh the material, social, and human costs...i am not going to start it because i'd feel damn creepy discussing the positive side of rapidly heating up the planet, raising ocean levels, acidifying the oceans, increasing extreme weather events, displacing human/animal/bug populations, and declining fresh water sources]
[img:center]http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/image_thumb33.png?w=625&h=484[/img] Let`s begin the discussion with studies made outside of the controlled information machine of politically correct consensus science. Why do you insist that the planet is rapidly warming up when it has actually been cooling down once again? Water shortages and overabundance have taken place throughout history from the Dust Bowl in the United States to a cataclismic loss of water in Northern India which created the same type of migration of an entire people forced out of their farms and cities to find arable ground millenia past. Global warming is also a very natural state of affairs scientists have known about for a very long time which is known as climate variability. Climategate has been uncovered now to the extent that the consensus did beyond a reasonable doubt conspire together on not a limited, but on a large scale basis to manipulate data to match the predictions of a rapidly warming Earth with no downward trends in average temperatures predicted which also has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be greatly erroneous. http://wattsupwiththat.com/climategate/ ........Glaciers are melting
www.greenpeace.org/fundYou +1'd this publicly. Undo
Climate change is melting glaciers. Stop the melting. Donate today pls........... Hot off a Google search I just finished about Mars` melting icecap. There is the byproduct of consensus global warming ie $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ up the assfor a few to go play, get laid and try to be seriously concerned when the mic and camera are turned on. But in all barebones truth and honesty, who in the fuck gives a shit one way or the other if they work full time jobs to pay the bills and perhaps have enough left over to take a vacation if they are lucky enough to have a job? Here are the results of a recent in house poll http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenrosenbaum/2012/03/05/climate-change-facing-off-on-the-future/ How did such a piece of shit like Gore end up sitting on the board of directors of Apple...fucking cunt.

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#1737063 - 03/20/12 01:24 PM Re: NASA new data cooling! [Re: DocSativa]
davidmalmolevine Offline
Ganja God
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Registered: 09/17/99
Posts: 21457
Loc: BC
http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2012/03/crazy-heat-wave-about-get

Mutant Heat Wave Shattering Records
—By Julia Whitty| Mon Mar. 19, 2012 11:18 AM PDT
24



Credit: NOAA/Southern Regional Climate Center

More than 2,200 warm temperature records have been set so far in March. Take a look at the map above to see where temps are crazy departures from normal.

This isn't your average heat wave. Its duration, set against more than a century of record keeping, makes it one for the climate change chronicles. Here's what some meteorologists are saying:

From the National Weather Service in Chicago: Chicago and Rockford have now both broken high temperature records 5 days in a row. There is even the potential they could tie or break record highs for up to an unbelievable 8 days in a row depending on how warm temperatures get Monday through Wednesday. It is extraordinarily rare for climate locations with 100+ year long periods of records to break records day after day after day.

From Jeff Masters' Wunderblog: The ongoing March heat wave in the Midwest is one of the most extreme heat events in US history. With so many records being shattered, it is difficult to cover in detail just how widespread, long-lasting, and extreme the event is.

According to the CapitalClimate blog (HT Climate Central) warm weather records this month are outpacing cold records by a whopping 19-to-1.


Credit: NWS.

Take Chicago. You can see in the graph above how radical this year's heat wave is compared with the five other top warmest Marches on record. The hashed black line shows the average month-to-date temps in degrees Celsius for March (convert here). The dotted blue line shows the month-to-date average temps for 2012 based on current predicted temperatures.

The upper Midwest topped out at Winner, South Dakota, yesterday, which hit 94°F—the earliest 90° reading ever recorded in the Northern Plains, according to Jeff Masters. He also points out the high temps aren't stopping at the border. Canada is weathering record-breaking heat too:

Winnipeg, Manitoba broke its record high for the past four days in a row, and hit 21°C (70°F) yesterday, its hottest temperature on record so early in the year. With today's forecast by Environment Canada and wunderground both calling for highs near 25°C (77°F), Winnipeg is likely to record its highest March temperature on record.






To put what's going on into a bigger perspective, this NASA/Goddard Institute for Space Studies video shows 131 years of global warming between 1880 and 2011 in 26 seconds. This year looks set to reinforce that accelerating trend.
_________________________
"making the earth a common treasury for all, both rich and poor." Gerrard Winstanley; April 20, 1649

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#1737164 - 03/21/12 01:29 PM Re: NASA new data cooling! [Re: davidmalmolevine]
davidmalmolevine Offline
Ganja God
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Registered: 09/17/99
Posts: 21457
Loc: BC
http://arctic-news.blogspot.ca/2012/02/rebuttal-david-archer-wrong-to-dismiss.html


Rebuttal: David Archer wrong to dismiss concern about potential methane runaway in Arctic

REBUTTAL:
DAVID ARCHER WRONG TO DISMISS CONCERN
ABOUT POTENTIAL METHANE RUNAWAY IN ARCTIC:
Why This Threat Is Real and the Imperative to Exercise
the Precautionary Principle When the Stakes Are This High

by Gary Houser



"We carried out checks at about 115 stationary points and discovered
methane fields of a fantastic scale - I think on a scale not seen before......
This is the first time we've found continuous, powerful and impressive
seeping structures more than 1,000 meters in diameter. It's amazing."
- Dr Igor Semiletov (crew leader of Sept.-Oct. 2011 U.S.-Russian
methane expedition in interview with the UK Independent) (1)

In the first sentence of his Jan. 4 entry on the "Real Climate" blog (2) , David Archer links to a rebuttal I wrote to oppose Andrew Revkin's "Dot Earth" dismissal of an article in the UKIndependent about dramatic new observations of methane emissions in the Arctic (3), Archer portrayed this rebuttal as an example of someone getting people un-necessarily "worked up" about the issue. As the co-producer of a documentary which has interviewed several leading edge scientists on this topic I have asked for space to respond. With all due respect to Archer, the result of these interactions has been a strong sense of urgency that stands in stark contrast to his dismissive stance.

Growing Concern About Rising Arctic Temperatures and Impact on Methane -
It is acknowledged that the Arctic is the most rapidly warming region on earth. As indicators point toward a near term loss of ice cover in the Arctic (with some studies pointing toward a late summer ice-free condition as soon as 2015 (4), there is a growing concern about how amplification of Arctic temperatures will affect the massive deposits of frozen methane in the shallow seabeds of the continental shelf areas. Researchers on the "front line" in the Arctic gathering empirical evidence - such as Igor Semiletov and Natalia Shakhova - are now reporting methane plume activity on a scale not witnessed before now.

These observations were reported in the UK Independent and since that time have stirred up controversy as to whether humanity may be receiving a first glimpse of a situation that could escalate into one of the scenarios most feared by climate scientists - an unstoppable positive feedback known as a methane "runaway" event. This controversy has been reflected in the above-described exchange on "Dot Earth" and is now expanding to "Real Climate" and even more recently to Joe Romm's "Climate Progress". On Jan.11, Romm wrote about how the methane situation is combining with other factors to create an urgent danger in the Arctic (5). The twin issues of contention in this controversy have been whether the methane threat is real and whether it is imminent, therefore deserving the urgent attention of the world.

The Big Picture Context of the Methane Controversy -

Before launching into a discussion of those two points, it would seem useful to explore the larger context. A key question deserving exploration would be "what is at stake?" What are the potential consequences if humanity fails to pick up on warning signs and a methane runaway event becomes unleashed?

The topic at hand is what most climate scientists would likely see as the worst case "nightmare" scenario which could lead to a total global catastrophe. We are talking about a greenhouse gas that has a full 72 times more powerful warming impact than CO2 within the first 20 years (6). We are talking about a global stockpile that contains as much carbon as all the world's known reserves of coal, oil, and natural gas combined. If there is even a chance that significant amounts might be released into the atmosphere by an unstoppable methane "runaway", a profound moral responsibility exists to approach the topic with utmost care and caution.

What is a Methane "Runaway" Event? -
The term is defined by Ira Leifer (methane researcher at the Marine Science Institute at Univ. of Calif - Santa Barbara) :
"A runaway feedback effect would be where methane comes out of the ocean
into the atmosphere leading to warming, leading to warmer oceans and more
methane coming out, causing an accelerated rate of warming in what one could
describe as a runaway train." (7)
Due to the enormous size of the methane deposits, this process would "feed" on itself in a way that humanity would most likely be helpless to stop.

Possible Key Role of Methane in Two Mass Extinctions, Including Worst in Earth's History -
In order to ascertain what kind of potential threat methane may be in the present context, it is important to look at earlier periods on earth when methane may well have played a key role in the most devastating mass extinction events in the geological record. Although not a "lock" in terms of absolute "proof", very strong circumstantial evidence points toward a major role of methane in two of these events. One is the "End-Permian" in which severe global warming led to such extreme heat and depletion of oxygen that over 90% of life forms were wiped out. (8) One attempt to take this association out of the abstract and make it more tangible can be seen in a nine minute segment (highly recommended) from the acclaimed documentary series "Miracle Planet" (9)

James Hansen relates methane to another extinction event (Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum - PETM):
"There have been times in the earth's history when methane hydrates on the
continental shelves melted and went into the atmosphere and caused global
warming of six to nine degrees Celsius, which is 10 to 18 degrees Fahrenheit." (10)
"It is difficult to imagine how the methane clathrates could survive, once the ocean
has had time to warm. In that event a PETM-like warming could be added on top
of the fossil fuel warming." (11)

We are clearly dealing with a destructive force of almost unimaginable power, which underlines my earlier warning that it be approached with utmost caution.



Are the Factors Present Which Could Lead to a Runaway?
In exercising such appropriate caution in dealing with a force of this magnitude, a logical question would be to ask whether the factors are now existent (or may soon be in the very near future) which could potentially unleash such a runaway. Here are several factors which are already present:
A) The incredible warming power of methane as a greenhouse gas (already quantified); B) The phenomenally huge volume of methane present in the continental shelf areas of the Arctic; C) The quite shallow depth of these seabeds, which allows direct venting to the surface and atmosphere (methane otherwise safely oxidizes in deep water); D) Their location in the most rapidly warming region on earth, where such is accelerating due to the "albedo flip" (open water now absorbing solar heat rather than having it reflected away by ice cover) and warmer water infiltrating at the river mouths; E) Direct observations confirming that large scale methane plumes are venting to the surface and into the atmosphere; and F) Direct observations confirming that seabed bottom temperatures are hovering at the thaw point (12).

20 Degree (Fahrenheit) Rise in Arctic Temperature by 2095 -
A study by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (M.I.T.) projects how much temperature rise could be expected in the Arctic by the year 2095 if world governments continue on a business as usual path. Its projection is an astounding 20 degrees (F) (13). Even more astonishing, this projection does not even consider how feedbacks could amplify this warming even further. According to study co-author Ronald Prinn:
"And the odds indicated by this modeling may actually understate the problem,
because the model does not fully incorporate other positive feedbacks that can
occur, for example, if increased temperatures caused a large-scale melting of
permafrost in arctic regions and subsequent release of large quantities of
methane, a very potent greenhouse gas. Including that feedback “is just going
to make it worse.” (14)

While it is not possible to pinpoint any particular time when a release of methane might hit "critical mass" and initiate the runaway, it certainly appears the necessary ingredients are present and a collision course has been set up. The question is no longer "if" but "when". With the Arctic warming so much faster than the rest of the world and arriving at such incredible temperatures within this century, it is clear that the "writing is on the wall" in terms of the future of methane in the shallow Arctic seabeds. Unless there is a major shift away from the "business as usual" scenario, it is inevitable that they will thaw and vent into the atmosphere.

How Soon Could Late Summer Ice-Free Conditions Accelerate the Warm-up? -
Most climate observers agree that the steady temperature climb in the Arctic will only accelerate once late summer ice-free conditions set in. Even with such astounding projections as that by M.I.T., the situation is actually more frightening and urgent. Almost every prediction of how rapidly climate impacts will occur has been out-paced by developments in the real world. If this consistent pattern repeats in regard to loss of Arctic sea ice (as it most likely will), the threat to hydrate stability will accelerate even more quickly. The Inter-governmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has been projecting a late summer ice-free Arctic by summer 2030. But experts who say that loss of ice thickness should be factored in as well as loss of surface ice are pointing toward an ice-free condition as early as 2015 (15)

One of the top experts on Arctic ice - Peter Wadhams of the University of Cambridge in the UK - supports the PIOMAS sea ice volume model (16).

Wadhams is concerned that the collapse could prove to be a point of no return for the ice:
"It is really showing the fall-off in ice volume is so fast that it is going to bring us
to zero very quickly. 2015 is a very serious prediction and I think I am pretty
much persuaded that's when it will happen." (17)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archer Acknowledges Power of Methane and Vulnerability (especially in Arctic) -
In a piece Archer co-authored in 2009 (18), he acknowledged both the destructive power of methane and the fragile and "intrinsically vulnerable" nature of hydrates:
"There are concerns that climate change could trigger significant
methane releases from hydrates and thus could lead to strong positive
carbon–climate feedbacks. .... Methane hydrate seems intrinsically
vulnerable on Earth; nowhere at the Earth's surface is it stable to
melting and release of the methane."
In this same piece, Archer affirms another key factor regarding this vulnerability:
"Rapid warming well above the global average makes the Arctic hydrates
particularly vulnerable to climate change."
In his current post, he alludes to the immense scale of these methane stockpiles and continues to outline the parameters of what is at least an extremely significant potential threat:
"The total amount of methane as ocean hydrates is poorly constrained but
could rival the rest of the fossil fuels combined."

It is significant that Archer acknowledges that the potential exists for a large scale positive methane feedback to occur. Where we disagree is in our assessment of how serious and how urgent this threat is.

THE CASE FOR URGENCY REGARDING THE METHANE THREAT:
Six Direct Challenges to David Archer

1) Human Warming *ON TOP OF* Natural Warming -
Having acknowledged several key reasons why methane poses at least a very large potential threat to humanity, it is difficult to comprehend why Archer would set himself up as a naysayer and discredit those who see indications that this potential might soon become a reality. One of the ways he tries to do this is to point toward the possibility of natural geothermal warming coming up from below and ask the question: how do we know the plumes are coming from new, human-created warming? But this question severely misses the point and throws the conversation off track. If indeed there is pre-existing warming coming from below, then this is only going to combine with human-made warming from above to create an even more volatile and dangerous situation.
If the permafrost cap is becoming perforated (as suggested by Shakhova), then the hydrates may become subject to de-stabilization from both directions.

2) Arctic Warming Already Approaching Methane Thaw Point in Shallow Seabeds -
Archer does not address the reports of scientists in the field who are describing how close the water temperature in the shallow seabeds is hovering near the thaw point. Igor SemiIetov - the crew leader of the recent U.S.- Russian methane expedition supported by the National Science Foundation - has been tracking the Arctic methane issue for over 15 years. In an interview for our documentary, he shared these remarkable comments on thaw points and warmer water at the surface being driven to deeper depths by increased levels of wind and wave action as the ice cover retreats:
"When ice has gone, there are stronger winds and waves and a deeper mixing of
water which causes the comparatively warm upper layer to mix with water at
deeper levels. There are already studies which confirm that in some areas,
bottom temperature in summer is 2 to 3 degrees above zero celsius (freezing).
This means that when we determine average temperature of the year, it is
already somewhere close to zero degrees celsius (the freezing / thaw point)......
As this warming spreads to a larger area, the more that shelf-based permafrost
will thaw." (19)

3) With Methane On Verge of Thawing Within Decades, How Does Archer Defend Complacency? -
With methane-laden areas already so close to a thaw point, it becomes a critical question to determine how rapidly the temperatures in the Arctic will increase. Once the ice cover undergoes collapse, there is nothing to prevent an escalation of Arctic warming. Under the business as usual scenario, we are seeing stunning projections of how warm the Arctic could become within this century - such as the M.I.T. study. These projections create a collision course whereby currently frozen methane will inevitably thaw. Now a strong case emerges that ice loss could happen even more rapidly than originally speculated, expanding the same open water that Semiletov says is driving warm temperatures downward to the seabed. With such a prospect of a warming Arctic releasing the colossal methane deposits, how does Archer defend the case for complacency?

I would ask him to respond to two science articles - illustrated with graphics - by Sam Carana, a member of the Arctic Methane Emergency Group (AMEG) which presented a poster, distributed a brochure, and gave a presentation at the American Geophysical Union (AGU) conference in San Francisco. Carana explores the connection between ice loss, warming temperatures in the Arctic, and the release of methane. (20) and (21)

4) Grasping Irreversibility, Dropping Insistence on Absolute Evidence That May Come Too Late -
Archer portrays the "alarmist" crowd as predicting a runaway within the next few years. This is not true. What they are saying is that a process may be initiated which could lead to a runaway. Sam Carana speaks to this point:
"The danger is that if relatively large amounts of methane are released abruptly into
the atmosphere in the Arctic, they will persist for decades, triggering yet further
temperature rises and methane releases, in a vicious cycle leading to runaway
global warming, even if the world did manage to take the necessary steps to
dramatically reduce emissions." (22)

As it is the definition of "runaway" that such a feedback will be all but impossible to stop once it starts, the only option for humanity is to act preventatively. When Archer continues the quest for some kind of absolute "smoking gun" evidence that the methane emissions now occuring are being caused by human-made warming, it seems he is having difficulty - as many of us are, including myself - in grasping the full meaning of the concept of IRREVERSIBILITY. This quest is wrong not only for the reason shared earlier but because at the point this causal connection may well become unequivocally "proven", it is highly possible that the runaway will have already been triggered and therefore too late to stop.

There will be no chance for a do-over here. For those who advocated complacency and were wrong, there will not be an opportunity to reverse course. With all respect, I must ask why make a gamble that could lead to such unspeakably tragic consequences? The incomparably more relevant question to ask is whether the factors may be lining up that could bring on a runaway, and what our societal response should be if they are.

5) Amplification and Other Consequences of Complacency -
We are obviously in a situation where time is of the essence. There are also two other factors that come into play. Huge amounts of fossil fuel industry money are backing orchestrated efforts to discredit climate science in general and most certainly any sense of urgency. In addition, many people are struggling with a very natural form of psychological denial that blocks us from seeing how close humanity may be to oblivion.

I have no reason at all to doubt the sincerity of Archer and believe his stance to be genuine. But when a scientist on a blog as respected as Real Climate downplays urgency, it can inadvertently be used as fodder to support both of these factors. Such a stance can be amplified by the blog universe (such as Scientific American as well as many denialist sites) to give an impression of a "consensus" in the scientific community when this is emphatically not the case. Archer is delivering a message of complacency (what Joe Romm refers to as "pushing the snooze button" (23) ) at precisely the moment when humanity must be heightening its vigilance to avoid passing a point of no return.

6) The Case for Invoking the Precautionary Principle and Assigning All Resources Necessary to Confirm Whether A Runaway Situation Is Being Approached -
A methane runaway would qualify as a planetary emergency. It is the view of a growing network of concern that several factors are combining which point toward the near term potential for such to develop in the Arctic. Rather than discredit such concern, humanity would be much better served by a rigorous scientific inquiry that could confirm whether there is merit to it. Igor Semiletov, involved in cutting edge field research on methane emissions, has informed this writer that much more could be accomplished with expanded funding support.

I call upon Archer and all Real Climate contributors to vocally support an immediate and high level escalation of research aimed toward "getting at the facts" on potential runaway - no matter where they lead. As the stakes could not be higher, it would be unspeakably tragic if world governments failed to provide such and the situation evolved to a point where a catastrophe spun out of control.

Preparation of Safe Geo-Engineering Options Should Humanity Need to Use Them -
The concept of geo-engineering has attracted a spectrum of opinions ranging from support to opposition and many shades in between. However, there is a fundamental reality staring in our face. If humanity waits until the point of no return is crossed and a runaway is unleashed, it will be too late to develop any such options. In the opinion of this writer, the prudent position is to work now on developing safe geo-engineering options so that there might at least be a chance to implement them should the world become convinced that a runaway is imminent.

Perceiving a threat that Arctic ice could conceivably collapse as soon as 2013, John Nissen - chairperson of the Arctic Methane Emergency Group (24) - offers a statement in support of urgent development of safe modes of geo-engineering :
"The Arctic Methane Emergency Group (AMEG) has been set up for the express
purpose of drawing the world’s attention to the danger arising from astonishingly
rapid retreat of sea ice, accelerated warming of the Arctic and escalating methane
emissions from the seabed, especially in the area off the Siberian coast. It is the
methane that can produce abrupt climate change, but it is the retreat of sea ice
that has triggered this crisis...... We are approaching a likely point of no return,
and therefore it is essential that emergency measures are taken to avoid passing
this point. This involves intervention on a large scale to cool the Arctic, either
directly or indirectly by cooling currents and rivers flowing into the Arctic. By
definition such intervention constitutes what is called 'geoengineering', but, whereas
geoengineering has generally been considered on a global scale to counter global
warming rising over decades, we need geoengineering geared to cool the Arctic
with a timescale of just months, to prevent a possible collapse in sea ice extent
in September 2013."

Critical Need for the Scientific Community to Speak Out More Forcefully -
In the case of methane, we are not dealing with a dramatic image of an atomic fireball and its capacity to render immediate destruction. But extended over a longer range of time, the global devastation it would inflict would be no less sweeping. The spectre of a methane runaway is real and it is an existential threat to humanity.

In our society, the scientific community holds a position of great respect. In order to protect scientific "objectivity", our tradition has been to separate the institution of science from the realm of public policy. I do not call upon Real Climate to violate its internal agreement and issue specific policy directives. However, I do call upon it to release a generic warning to policy makers that humanity must break out of its state of denial, recognize that the laws of physics do not operate on a political calendar, realize we are dealing with a powerful force that can spin out of control, and therefore quickly educate ourselves as to the severity of the threat. It is my hope that Real Climate - as well as the larger community of climate scientists - will rise to the occasion and show the way.

Gary Houser Co-producer and writer
"Sleeping Giant of the Arctic:
Could Thawing Methane Trigger Runaway Global Warming?"
www.590films.org/methane.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMAGES:
Methane bubbles from: Sauter et al. dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.epsl.2006.01.041
East Siberian Arctic Shelf map from: Sodahead
PIOMAS graph by Wipneus based on PIOMAS data.

LINKS and NOTES:
(1) UK Independent, Dec.13, 2011 Vast methane 'plumes' seen in Arctic ocean as sea ice retreats ...
(2) RealClimate: Much ado about methane
(3) Vast methane 'plumes' seen in Arctic ocean as sea ice retreats ...
(4) Arctic sea ice 'to melt by 2015' - Telegraph
(5) RealClimate Is Alarmed by Arctic Methane, Should You Be ...
(6) Global-warming potential - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(7) Documentary interview with Leifer www.590films.org/methane.html , (in progress); the crew has interviewed climate scientists Igor Semiletov and Natalia Shakhova (Internat'l Arctic Research Center / IARC at the Univ. of Alaska - Fairbanks), Ira Leifer (Marine Science Institute at Univ. of Calif.-Santa Barbara), Vladimir Romanovsky (IARC), and Katey Walter (Univ. of Alaska - Fairbanks). On geological history and extinction events, paleo-climatologists Michael Benton (Univ. of Bristol in UK, author of book When Life Nearly Died) and Andrew Glikson (Australian National Univ. in Canberra). Also in consultation with Peter Wadhams of the Univ. of Cambridge - one of the top Arctic ice experts in the UK.
(8) Wipeout: the end-Permian mass extinction
(9) Nine minute segment from "Miracle Planet" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exfNNDExxIc&list=PL0200B1524E220C5A&feature=player_embedded
(10) Interview segment with James Hansen: http://youtu.be/ACHLayfA6_4
(11) from Hansen's book Storms of My Grandchildren
(12) Documentary interview with Semiletov www.590films.org/methane.html
(13) M.I.T. Study, M.I.T. doubles its 2095 warming projection to 10°F — with 866 ppm and Arctic warming of 20°F
(14) M.I.T. Study, M.I.T. doubles its 2095 warming projection to 10°F — with 866 ppm and Arctic warming of 20°F
(15) Arctic sea ice 'to melt by 2015' - Telegraph
(16) PIOMAS graph link: http://neven1.typepad.com/.a/6a0133f03a1e37970b0153920ddd12970b-pi
(17) Arctic sea ice 'to melt by 2015' - Telegraph
(18) Archer, co-author Gas hydrates: entrance to a methane age or climate ... - IOPscience
(19) Documentary interview with Semiletov www.590films.org/methane.html
(20) http://arctic-news.blogspot.com/p/warming-in-arctic.html
(21) http://arctic-news.blogspot.com/p/potential-for-methane-release.html
(22) http://arctic-news.blogspot.com/p/warming-in-arctic.html
(23) RealClimate Is Alarmed by Arctic Methane, Should You Be ...
(24) Arctic Methane Emergency Group (AMEG) website: www.arctic-methane-emergency-group.org
_________________________
"making the earth a common treasury for all, both rich and poor." Gerrard Winstanley; April 20, 1649

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#1737303 - 03/23/12 05:30 AM Re: NASA new data cooling! [Re: slartibartfast]
DocSativa Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 48
Originally Posted By: slartibartfast
hope is a rare earth element these days...i dunno how you keep your head above sea level after all the shit you've been through
It's not for nothing the word tsunami is Japanese ("harbor wave"). It has been only a year ago this month that the fifth most powerful earthquake of the 20th century sent a tsunami 6 miles inland killing 20,000, over 14,000 of them drowned. There were so many bodies that crematoriums used in the customary Buddhist funerals were overwhelmed and government and the military had to bury bodies in mass... graves with no rites and only the promise of cremation later. More people were never seen again, probably washed out to sea, than were killed on 9/11. Entire coastal towns were utterly destroyed, wiped out to sea. Dams, ports, nuclear power plants... all manner of civilized infrastructure was damaged or destroyed.

In the six years prior to the tsunami, the Japanese government spent $78 billion on global warming research instead of tsunami/earthquake preparedness. None of the 214 global warming projects produced effective results. It is not simply an egotism that man believes he's killing the planet, it's a kind of comforting mass hallucination that he thinks he even can.

From the opening of "Sexual Personae," by Camille Paglia:

"Society is an artificial construction, a defense against nature's power. Without society, we would be storm-tossed on the barbarous sea that is nature.

Civilized man conceals from himself the extent of his subordination to nature. The grandeur of culture, the consolation of religion absorb his attention and win his faith. But let nature shrug, and all is in ruin. Fire, flood, lightning, tornado, hurricane, volcano, earthquake--anywhere at any time. Disaster falls upon the good and bad. Civilized life requires a state of illusion. The idea of the ultimate benevolence of nature and God is the most potent of man's survival mechanisms. Without it, culture would revert to fear and despair." Ahhh shut your gob dude; sitting behind a computer trying to do shit is a really challenging what; copout??? The Arctic ice is melting and now we can get to the oil!!! Yaaaahooooo!!!


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#1737861 - 03/27/12 04:14 PM Re: NASA new data cooling! [Re: DocSativa]
slartibartfast Offline
Carpal Tunnel
**

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 2631
you begin by rejecting studies made within the realm of accepted science (ie: peer reviewed results with replicated data published in professional journals) in favour of a chart found on wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com (a site operated by contrarian blogger anthony watts, a former television weatherman)

what is up with THAT?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Watts_%28blogger%29

ignoring mr anthony's lack of scientific bonafides, the chart at wattsupwiththat contains temperature data from 2000 onwards...even IF the chart is 100% accurate, the cooling trend appears to begin *after* 2007...it's not much of a trend considering that, according to NASA, 9 of the 10 hottest years on record occurred after 2000, and 2011 was the 9th warmest year, and the only year from the 20th century that made the top ten was 1998...that makes the first decade of the 21st century the warmest decade since 1880, despite the cooling effects of la nina and low solar activity over the past few years

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2011-temps.html


it is telling that you rage at mr gore, and anthony watts rages at john kerry on the homepage of his blog, yet you both accuse the scientific community of having a bias...kerry and gore do have a bias, but it is based on scientifically accepted principles...the bias shared by you and watts begins outside of the field of consensus science, and tracks deeply into the field of consensus conjecture

regardless, i would be a lot happier if you were right and science was wrong

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