"There is absolutely nothing Democratic in Socialist practice."



Gee, I never looked into the Spanish revolution. It had nothing to do with communists and fascists killing each other? Guess what d!% w*$! The remnants of both are alive and well in Spain today. After the subway bombing, who won the national election? The Socialist Party? Well I`ll be God Damned!
Now you`ve stepped in another meadow muffin. You had better go back and look up who the belligerants were in the Spanish Civil WAR before you say it involved Anarchists and Royalists alone. The Spanish Civil War was fought by two extremes communism and fascism. How it got started is irrelevant to the actual Casus Belli.

I`ve never once said that I oppose socialists in power. As long as they can be voted out and are subject to constitutionally mandated term limits, everything`s OOOOKaaay.
Democracy stops authoritarian Socialism in its tracks. You have yet to show yourself to support any democratic institutions; probably because you, like too many others, want a free ride on others` labors.

Speaking of Spain, there is someone there today who fought off both communists and fascists to turn over his rule to democracy.
This guy has balls!!!


The case against socialism.
April 7, 2008 by koko chassid · 32 Comments

Think about a government who does away with private property, nationalizes products, and forces labor for no profits. That’s a socialist government. Here are some ways socialism fails:

1. Socialism wants free food for all. Question: Who is going to produce it for no money?

Socialist Answer: Threaten his life and his family.

2. Socialism wants to make better life for the poor. Question: How will that be done?

Socialist Answer: Make life miserable for the rich and the middle class for having the “audacity” of making an inequality between the rich and poor.

3. There will be corruption and double standards like there was in the Soviet Union, for instance Stalin didn’t live in a regular poor mans farm.

When you look at the Socialist party’s issues, You will see they want a forced-labor type of government. Even these so called “social democracies” will have the same corruption and abuse of the middle class. For instance, in Denmark’s “social democracy” you are taxed 50%, and you lose your right to go to a private physician.

When I talk about “forced labor,” how do you think the Soviets got control of working people who wanted their rights as workers? Socialism fails, if it where successful why do they have to threaten the works life and his families?

"I would love to see how many examples of voluntary socialism have lasted for any length of time without devolving into communism or some form of military dictatorship where the wealth is spread unequally among a minority of elites, and the rest remain needy."

I'm sure such statements were made by Kings and their supporters at the beginning of the American Revolution.

Just because something had a few false starts doesn't mean it's not worth attempting. If you don't like history, think of young Anakin Skywalker and his first few pod races. At first you don't succeed ...

As well, Christiania is 37 years old. Not bad for being totally without rulers. If they can do it, why can't everyone else do it too?





"Democracy allows for a middle class to grow and flourish ..."

Representative Democracy? You're calling what we're doing now "flourishing"? I think Obama just borrowed a few trillion from future generations to prevent the economy you think is "flourishing" from crumbling.

Direct Democracy (anarchy) on the other hand does have a flourishing economic history. There's a "middle class" in Christiania too - check out some of the houses they live in:

http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=Christiania+houses&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2

You call Christiania a success? It`s a tourist trap where artsy fartsy squatters hawk art and drugs to tourists who, for the most part, live in democratic countries. Christiania is also policed by Danish cops. The place is no different than hippie communes which still exist within the USA. You`re going to hold up a twig and try to bullshit us into believing it`s a tree?

"There has to be a trial and a conviction or, as in Clinton`s perjury, an impeachment before you can make any of those accusations anything other than propaganda bullshit."

I would like to see a trial. If there's one guy who should be asked where he was on the day of Kennedy's assassination, it's "future head of the CIA", "hang out with Felix Rodreguez and the Miami Cubans", "named the landing craft at the Bay of Pigs" G. H. W. Bush.

The Bush family's Satan worshiping is well-documented. Both Sr. and Jr. Bush belong to the Bohemian Club, who's members worship "Molech" - the devil whom demanded child sacrifice in the Old Testament:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/images/january2005/010105grove20.jpg

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2005/020104grovebackground.htm


If you think CIA drug running isn't well documented - especially during the late 1970's when Bush oversaw it as CIA director on in the 1980's and early 1990's when Bush oversaw it as VP and then Prez - you just haven't bothered to look into it:

http://www.serendipity.li/cia.html

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ciadrugs/witness_list.html

http://fas.org/irp/congress/1998_cr/980507-l.htm

http://www.hermes-press.com/prisons_drugs.htm


I think the other accusations - war profiteering by Sam Prescott Bush and Nazi banking by Prescott Sheldon Bush - are both a matter of public record and currently are not being disputed by anybody:

http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/3579.html







"We don`t yet live under Napoleanic Law, David. I would not like to see the kangaroo courts and summary executions your politics become."

I'm against the death penalty - as are many of the popular anarchist writers such as Chomsky and Kropotkin and Woodcock and Tolstoy.

"The Spanish Civil War was fought by two extremes communism and fascism."

Do you ever look anything up for yourself?

I think this is the 100th time in a row you've provided no sources for your statements.

The Spanish Civil War was fought between the left socialists and anarchists (both of whom were betrayed by the communists) on the one side and the fascist corporate western democracies (who refused to supply the Spanish Government with weapons) and military dictatorships (such as Hitler and Mussolini who supplied Franco with weapons and Troops) the other side:



The Franco insurrection in July 1936 came against a background of several months of strikes, expropriations, and battles between peasants and Civil Guards. The left-wing Socialist leader Largo Caballero had demanded in June that the workers be armed, but was refused by Manuel Azana. When the coup came, the Republican government was paralyzed. Workers armed themselves in Madrid and Barcelona, robbing government armories and even ships in the harbor, and put down the insurrection while the government vacillated, torn between the twin dangers of submitting to Franco and arming the working classes. In large areas of Spain effective authority passed into the hands of the anarchist and socialist workers who played a substantial, generally dominant role in putting down the insurrection. [27]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War


By the time he left Spain, he became a "convinced democratic Socialist."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homage_to_Catalonia#Chapter_seven






"There is absolutely nothing Democratic in Socialist practice."

"Hitler had never been a socialist..."
-Hitler, a Study in Tyrrany, p.255

"The Spanish and other events in 1936-7 turned the scale and thereafter I knew where I stood. Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understood it."
- George Orwell, "Why I write"

"My feeling about anarchism is that it is not a movement with an ideology. It is a tendency in the history of human thought & action which seeks to identify coercive, authoritarian, & hierarchic structures of all kinds & to challenge their legitimacy - & if they cannot justify their legitimacy, which is quite commonly the case, to work to undermine them & expand the scope of freedom."

- Noam Chomsky

"The place is no different than hippie communes which still exist within the USA. You`re going to hold up a twig and try to bullshit us into believing it`s a tree?"

It's a tree:


"There is always live music or theatrical performances. Christianites often meet down in the pubs with their instruments and hold a little jam session. There’s also a large concert hall where well-known bands often come to play - I missed Red Hot Chili Peppers by a week last time I visted!!"

http://taintedfaith.wordpress.com/2006/12/27/an-endangered-state-christiania/



http://video.google.ca/videosearch?hl=en...-8&sa=N&tab=wv#

Belligerents
Spanish Republic

CNT/FAI

UGT

POUM
International Brigades
Soviet Union
Mexico

Nationalist Spain

Falange

Requetés

Kingdom of Italy
Germany
Portugal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War


That`s from your source. The anarchists of Spain were splintered. Again, you find Anarchy siding with Socialists in the Spanish Civil War. Would you care to see more examples of the same pattern? The fact that Anarchists always become disillusioned when Socialism devolves into authoritarian regimes does not in any way discount the fact that Anarchy is just a means to an end for leftist revolutionary tyrants. If 2.5 million Anarchists, who started the Spanish Civil War were subverted by 14,000 communists, that doesn`t speak well for the splintered, self serving nature of Anarchist collectivism.

In case you forgot, the fascists came out victorious in the Spanish Civil War. The left lost a lot of support because of their favorite tactic of blowing up churches and massacreing non combatants. Why don`t you read your sources? Wiki is close enough to demonstrate why the leftists must resort to violence in order to maintain power. Spain is an example to the world what Socialism is capable of doing to it`s subjects. Had the Stalinist`s won the war, do you think there would have been less murder of political opponents?

ANARCHISTS ARE JUST A MATCH IN THE HANDS OF EXTREMISTS WHO WANT ABSOLUTE POWER.

DML SHILLS FOR HIS PARTNERS

"Again, you find Anarchy siding with Socialists in the Spanish Civil War."

Socialists come in many varieties. The authoritarian socialists are the "commies" that you hate. The libertarian socialists are not commies - they are the things commies pretend to be, they don't take power away from people like the commies do.

Unless you attempt to understand the difference, this conversation will stay as boring as it currently is.

"The fact that Anarchists always become disillusioned when Socialism devolves into authoritarian regimes..."

It didn't happen with the CNT FAI.


The CNT is still active today. Their influence, however, is limited. The CNT, in 1979, split into two factions: CNT/AIT and CNT/U. The CNT/AIT claimed the original "CNT" name, which led the CNT/U to change its name to Confederación General del Trabajo (CGT) in 1989, which retains most of the CNT's principles. The CGT is much larger, with perhaps 50,000 members (although it represents as many as two million workers), and is currently the third largest union in Spain. An important cause for the split and the main practical difference between the two trade unions today is that the CGT participates, just like any other Spanish trade union, in elecciones sindicales, where workers choose their representatives who sign their collective bargaining agreements. CGT has an important number of representatives in, for example, SEAT, the Spanish car manufacturer and still the largest enterprise in Catalonia and also in the public railroad system, e.g.: it holds the majority in Barcelona's underground. CNT does not participate in elecciones sindicales and criticizes this model. The CNT-CGT split has made it impossible for the government to give back the unions' important facilities that belonged to them before Franco's regime seized them and used them for their only legal trade union, a devolution also still pending in part for some of the other historical political parties and worker organizations.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain#Today



Here's another example of the differences between authoritarian socialists and anarchists and/or libertarian socialists:

There was occasional but fleeting and superficial unity between anarchists and non-communist socialists, but in general relations were uneasy. A socialist leader once said: "There is a great deal of confusion in the minds of many comrades. They consider Anarchist Syndicalism as an ideal which runs parallel with our own, when it is its absolute antithesis, and that the Anarchists and Syndicalists are comrades when they are our greatest enemies." The often opportunistic UGT often provided scabs to break CNT strikes. Condemnations of socialist tactics by anarchists was not at all uncommon. Yet, more radical socialists (like the POUM) often made allies out of the anarchists, especially during the Civil War and particularly in the defense of Madrid. By 1938, an official pact of unity had been signed between the CNT and the UGT.

Communists had extremely limited influence within Spain until around the time of the Civil War. The working classes, anarchist or not, responded to the Bolshevik revolution with triumph, as did most revolutionaries throughout the world. It was celebrated as a victory of the masses and a beacon of hope. Workers refused to ship arms that would be used against the Red Army. However, libertarians soon discovered the true nature of Bolshevik power, especially after the brutal suppression of the Kronstadt rebellion, and again when Leon Trotsky's Red Army attacked Nestor Makhno's Black Guards in Ukraine. The anarchist relationship with the Bolsheviks after these events was bitter. The CNT ardently refused to join COMINTERN and frequently criticized the policies of the Bolshevik government. Communist antipathy to anarchism was equally strong: when communists attained power during the Civil War, anarchist groups were repressed, often violently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain#Relationship_with_socialists_and_communists

One picture worth 18,152 posts, comrade.

DML SHILLS FOR HIS ALLY