As usual, you are correct. It`s time to switch from child to adult and get back to the subject matter.

"It`s time to switch from child to adult..."

I'll believe it when I see it.

So what`s your point Red? Does anti communist, anti fascist and anti theocratic and abhorrence of Monarchy have any connection to the founding principles and amazing success of the United States; or are you suggesting communism is a superior form of government?

Who`s your daddy? Anarchism
Noam Chomsky interviewed by David Dobereiner, John Hess, Doug Richardson & Tom Woodhull
C. P. Otero (ed.), Language and Politics, Black Rose, 1988, pp. 166-196, January, 1974
BLACK ROSE: In your article Notes on Anarchism, you were pretty sympathetic to anarchism. You talk about the "process of rehabilitation" of Daniel Guerin, reintegrating anarchism into the twentieth century. Do you see anarchism as being really that relevant to social problems in the advanced capitalist countries?
CHOMSKY: Well, as you know very well, anarchism covers a broad spectrum. That particular strain that Guerin isolated and studied I think is a valuable one. It's one that converges pretty much with libertarian Marxism, I think. Marxism also covers a pretty broad spectrum and there is a point at which some varieties of anarchism and some varieties of Marxism come very close together, as for example, people like Karl Korsch, who was very sympathetic to the Spanish anarchist movement, though he himself was sort of an orthodox Marxist. And out of that complex of ideas, anarcho-syndicalist ideas and libertarian socialist ideas, it seems to me that there is a very applicable... In fact, I think those are exactly the appropriate ideas for an advanced technological society, one which... It seems to me that anarchism in that sense suggests certain principles of organiation which are extremely realistic. Sort of a natural evolution with a high enough level of technology and communication and elimination of onerous, but necessary, labor. Under those conditions it seems to me entirely possible, in fact, essential , to move toward these social forms so very much appropriate to advanced industrial society.

BLACK ROSE: In that context, (a) what do you think of Marx's class analysis and (b) what social economic group in this country do you think is the most relevant to radical transformation?

CHOMSKY: Well, I think the general idea of class analysis is indispensable. Whether Marx's particular formulations were either historically accurate or applicable today may be questioned. I would tend to agree with Bakunin's criticism of Marx that the notion of "the dictatorship of the proletariat" in a partially agrarian society would be a very repressive and destructive system, as in fact... I'm not implying the Bolsheviks introduced the dictatorship of the proletariat, they did not, but the particular perversion of it they introduced gives some justification to that analysis and I think one could make other comments of that sort. But the insight that class analysis is indispensable to understanding of social processes, I don't have any doubt that that's true.

BLACK ROSE: Which Bakunin agreed with.

CHOMSKY: Right. There are questions of interpretation and so on, but I don't see how any socialist could fail to agree with that, or any social scientist for that matter. As far as contemporary society is concerned, it seems to me that you can identify roughly a class of productive workers which now includes a pretty diffuse spectrum going all the way from manual laborers to technicians to scientists to creators of intellectual culture. http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/197401--.htm

Even your daddy freely admits to the essential ties between anarchists and Marxists. What makes me sick about pukes like Chomsky and others of his ilk is his willingness to make excuses for the failures of Marxist communist regimes ie, if they had only done this, if they had not done that puke puke... then they would have created what never exists Utopia!

The second liar never stands a chance. Never understtood that?

dml`s god.

[img] [/img]

"So what`s your point Red?"

If your argument is so weak you need to distract from it with disrespect, keep ignoring my own descriptions of my ideals and keep on supplying the inaccurate "commie" label.

But if you have confidence in your argument - if you are confident you don't have to play games to be the most convincing in this debate - call me what I want to be called ... not a communist but the opposite - an anarchist and or libertarian socialist.





"Does anti communist, anti fascist and anti theocratic and abhorrence of Monarchy have any connection to the founding principles and amazing success of the United States..."


"Thomas Paine (January 29, 1737 – June 8, 1809) was a British pamphleteer, revolutionary, radical, inventor, and intellectual. He lived and worked in Britain until age 37, when he emigrated to the British American colonies, in time to participate in the American Revolution. His principal contribution was the powerful, widely-read pamphlet Common Sense (1776), advocating colonial America's independence from the Kingdom of Great Britain, and of The American Crisis (1776–1783), a pro-revolutionary pamphlet series.

Later, he greatly influenced the French Revolution. He wrote the Rights of Man (1791), a guide to Enlightenment ideas. Despite not speaking French, he was elected to the French National Convention in 1792. The Girondists regarded him as an ally, so, the Montagnards, especially Robespierre, regarded him as an enemy. In December of 1793, he was arrested and imprisoned in Paris, then released in 1794. He became notorious because of The Age of Reason (1793–94), the book advocating deism and arguing against Christian doctrines. In France, he also wrote the pamphlet Agrarian Justice (1795), discussing the origins of property, and introduced the concept of a guaranteed minimum income.

He remained in France during the early Napoleonic era, but condemned Napoleon's dictatorship, calling him "the completest charlatan that ever existed".[1] In 1802, at President Thomas Jefferson's invitation, he returned to America."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine




"...or are you suggesting communism is a superior form of government?"

Both communism and capitalism suck equally bad because they're both hierarchical - decisions are made by the few in the interests of the few. Only non-hierarchical systems have any chance of sustainability.


"Even your daddy freely admits to the essential ties between anarchists and Marxists."

Do you even read your own posts? Your example is one of an anarchist criticizing Marx:

"I would tend to agree with Bakunin's criticism of Marx that the notion of "the dictatorship of the proletariat" in a partially agrarian society would be a very repressive and destructive system, as in fact..."
http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/197401--.htm





"What makes me sick about pukes like Chomsky and others of his ilk is his willingness to make excuses for the failures of Marxist communist regimes ie, if they had only done this, if they had not done that puke puke... then they would have created what never exists Utopia! "

I don't see Chomsky saying that ... if you can point to the paragraph you're talking about we could look at it and see if it's an endorsement of "hierarchical control" (communism) or of "direct worker control" (libertarian socialism).

If you bother to read Chomsky (or even watch the movie "Manufacturing Consent" about Chomsky) what he actually says is "look what good the anarchists did when they were sharing power together".

Manufacturing Consent:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-...g+Consent&hl=en


Spanish Anarchist Revolution:

"There was much in this that I did not understand, in some ways I did not even like it, but I recognized it immediately as a state of affairs worth fighting for."
-George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia
http://www.george-orwell.org/Homage_to_Catalonia/0.html

"Despite the critics clamoring for "maximum efficiency" rather than revolutionary methods, anarchic communes often produced more than before the collectivization. In Aragon, for instance, the productivity increased by 20%.[2] The newly liberated zones worked on entirely libertarian principles; decisions were made through councils of ordinary citizens without any sort of bureaucracy"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution

Let`s get back to Douglas Pike.
[edit] Research
A first summary was published for the U.S. Mission in Vietnam by Douglas Pike, then working as a Foreign Service Officer for the U.S. Information Agency in 1970. Pike identified three distinct phases for the executions in Huế. Phase one was a series of "kangaroo court" trials of local ARVN officials. The highly publicized trials lasted anywhere from five to ten minutes and the accused were always found guilty of “crimes against the people”. Phase two was implemented when the communists thought that they could hold the city long-term, and consisted of a campaign of “social reconstruction” along Maoist dogmatic lines. Those who the Communists believed to be counterrevolutionaries were singled out in this phase. Catholics, intellectuals, prominent businessmen and other “imperialist lackeys” were targeted in order to “build a new social order”. The last phase began when it became evident that the communists could not hold the city and was designed to “leave no witnesses”. Anyone who could identify individual VC members who participated in the occupation was to be killed and their bodies hidden.

Many later authors relied on his account, e.g. Stanley Karnow in Vietnam, A History and Michael Maclear in The Ten Thousand Day War, while some still regard it as a piece of propaganda intended to support the U.S. war effort.

Other early sources include front line reporters serving under a strict code of reporting conduct imposed by U.S. forces and agencies. Later studies contending with these earlier accounts, most prominently Gareth Porter's examination, were highly critical of the initial reports and sought to defend North Vietnam against the impact of the alleged propaganda. On the other hand, Porter admitted that there were executions in Huế during the occupation. Porter argued that the executions were the actions of individuals rather than the policy of the Vietcong. Shortly thereafter one of Porter's leading witnesses, Alje Vennema, published a book about the massacre supporting Pike's version. There has been denial of the scale of the massacre by some 'anti-war' critics, such as Noam Chomsky, Marilyn B. Young in The Vietnam Wars, 1945-1990 contends,

"In the early days of the occupation, there were indeed summary executions ... and as the occupation ended in the firestorm of artillery and aerial bombardment, retreating Vietcong troops executed many of those they held in custody (rather than either releasing them or keeping them prisoner), not in the numbers Saigon and Washington charged, but certainly enough to have posed troubling questions for the people of Huế who survived..."

Douglas Pike's account referencing the government of South Vietnam's estimated civilian casualties states:

"The story remains uncompleted. If the estimates by Huế officials are even approximately correct, nearly 2,000 people are still missing (as of late 1970)."

KGB Defector Yuri Bezmenov Bezmenov at 1:10 [1] explains blacklist killings to be standard Leninist mode of operation taught by Soviet instructors.
Again, your daddy tries to cover for communist`s murders

Come on dml, keep on a kicking that tar baby. Some advice? You had better disown that sonofabitch Chomsky cause there`s lots more proof of his true politics coming at you.

I heard about the muscle tactics also which apparently you were responsible for. Did you have a blacklist also? Kick that tar baby br`r dml!

There are two criticisms that retain a certain validity, however. The participants, the ‘jurors’ and the witnesses, were undoubtedly biased. They made no attempt, in fact, to conceal this bias, this profound hatred of murder and wanton destruction carried out by a brutal foreign invader with unmatched technological resources.
A second and less frivolous criticism that might be raised is that the indictment is, in a sense, superfluous and redundant. This is a matter that deserves more serious attention.
The Pentagon will gladly supply, on request, such information {10} as the quantity of ordnance expended in Indochina. From 1965 through 1969 this amounts to about four and a half million tons by aerial bombardment. This is nine times the tonnage of bombing in the entire Pacific theatre in the Second World War, including Hiroshima and Nagasaki - ‘over 70 tons of bombs for every square mile of Vietnam, North and South ... about 500 pounds of bombs for every man, woman and child in Vietnam’.1 The total of ‘ordnance expended’ is more than doubled when ground and naval attack are taken into account. With no further information than this, a person who has not lost his senses must realize that the war is an overwhelming atrocity.

...

He describes the savage American reaction to the conquest of many cities by the NLF in the Tet offensive in January 1968 - for example, in Saigon, where in an effort to dislodge the 1,000 soldiers who had taken the city, ‘artillery and air strikes were repeatedly used against densely populated areas of the city, causing heavy civilian casualties’; or in Hue, where the American reoccupation left ‘a devastated and prostrate city’. ‘Eighty per cent of the buildings had been reduced to rubble, and in the smashed ruins lay 2,000 dead civilians.9 ... Three quarters of the city’s {14} people were rendered homeless and looting was widespread, members of the ARVN being the worst offenders’. Elsewhere, the story was much the same:

Everywhere, the US-ARVN forces mounted counterattacks of great severity. In the delta region below Saigon, half of the city of Mytho, with a population of 70,000, was destroyed by artillery and air strikes in an effort to eject a strong VC force. In Ben Tre on 7 February, at least 1,000 civilians were killed and 1,500 wounded in an effort to dislodge 2,500 VC.

According to Hoopes, the combat photographer David Douglas Duncan, whose war experience covers the Second World War, Korea, Algeria and the French war in Vietnam, ‘was appalled by the US-ARVN method of freeing Hue’. He quotes him as saying:

The Americans pounded the Citadel and surrounding city almost to dust with air strikes, napalm runs, artillery and naval gunfire, and the direct cannon fire from tanks and recoilless rifles a total effort to root out and kill every enemy soldier. The mind reels at the carnage, cost, and ruthlessness of it all.

...




9. The NLF claims that 2,000 victims of the American bombardment were buried in mass graves (see Wilfred Burchett, Guardian, 6 December 1969). This is consistent with Hoopes’s account. Hoopes states that, after ten days of fighting, 300 local officials and prominent citizens were found in a mass grave. This corresponds roughly with the estimate of Police Chief Doan Cong Lap, who estimated the total number executed as 200; he also gives the figure of 3,776 civilian casualties in the battle of Hue (Stewart Harris, The Times, 27 March 1968). Apart from Harris, I know of only one journalist who has given a detailed eye-witness report from Hue at the time, namely Marc Riboud. US authorities were unable to show him the mass graves reported by the US mission. Riboud reports 4,000 civilians killed during the reconquest of the ‘assassinated city’ of Hue (Le Monde, 13 April 1968). AFSC staff people in Hue were unable to confirm the reports of mass graves, though they reported many civilians shot and killed during the reconquest of the city (see the report by John Sullivan of AFSC, 9 May 1968). For attempts to evaluate government propaganda on mass killings in Hue, see D. Gareth Porter and Len E. Ackland, ‘Vietnam: the bloodbath argument’, Christian Century, 5 November 1969; Vietnam International, December 1969 (6 Endsleigh Street, London, W.C.1); Tran Van Dinh, ‘Fear of a bloodbath’, New Republic, 6 December 1969. The only other accounts I have seen merely convey information given out by American government sources.Back

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/1971----.htm


Sounds like most of the people who died at Hue died from "air strikes" and "the retaking of Hue" - most of the dead were from the US occupiers, not those fighting the occupiers.

lmao...yea right!

if he calls me "fucktard" one more time i think ill puke. Not only does he use "insults", he "insults" an entire country with his AmeriKKKa crap.

its especially insulting when spoken by a person who has failed at everything he does but yet passes judgement on everybody else..

*pot museum=closed
*herb school=closed
*college degree=he quit
*convicted felon


which of course he blames on everyone else who is "dicking him around"...




lmao...are you sniffing glue?


DML embellishing once again to prove a point...

500,000 women killed by Americans?!...i asked him to back it up. He couldnt and didnt...Its just pure made up fiction designed to slander america...



it sure is...

ROLMFOA WOW i love how insecure Republicans are. Two failed wars and a fucked up ecomeny ya Amerikka under Bush sure was great eh ROLMFAO

BTW how many people do you think died because America had to defend itself against a nation that was never a threat FYI where were the WMD?

Really 19.5 the only people who buy this crap is Republicans.

"its especially insulting when spoken by a person who has failed at everything he does but yet passes judgement on everybody else..

*pot museum=closed
*herb school=closed
*college degree=he quit
*convicted felon"

1) I only pass judgment on people who judge me or threaten the movement.

2) The Herb Museum is about to reopen - within one month, says Marc Emery.

3) I'm proud of my entire criminal record ... at least I haven't failed at being a criminal!






"500,000 women killed by Americans?!...i asked him to back it up. He couldnt and didnt..."


New analysis ‘confirms’ 1 million+ Iraq casualties

January 28th 2008

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Further survey work undertaken by ORB, in association with its research partner IIACSS, confirms our earlier estimate that over 1,000,000 Iraqi citizens have died as a result of the conflict which started in 2003.

Following responses to ORB’s earlier work, which was based on survey work undertaken in primarily urban locations, we have conducted almost 600 additional interviews in rural communities. By and large the results are in line with the ‘urban results’ and we now estimate that the death toll between March 2003 and August 2007 is likely to have been of the order of 1,033,000. If one takes into account the margin of error associated with survey data of this nature then the estimated range is between 946,000 and 1,120,000.

Our revised estimate – which compares to a figure of 1.2 million published in August 2007 – is based on a representative sample of 2,414 adults aged 18+. They were asked the following question:-
How many members of your household, if any, have died as a result of the conflict in Iraq since 2003 (i.e. as a result of violence rather than a natural death such as old age)? Please note that I mean those who were actually living under your roof?
None

72%

One

14%

Two

3%

Three

1%

Four or more

*

Don’t know

2%

No answer

8%


* * = figure more than zero but less than 0.5%
* Note: Of the 251 people who declined to give an answer the large majority (66%) were interviewed in Baghdad.

Casualties Calculation:

Among the over 2,160 respondents who answered the question 20% said that there had been at least one death in their household as a result of the conflict which started in 2003. Within these households the average number of deaths was 1.26 people.

The last complete census in Iraq conducted in 1997 indicated a total of 4,050,597 households. Based on this our data suggests a total of 1,033,239 deaths since March 2003. Given that the statistical margin of error on a sample of approximately 2,160 people is +1.7% (for findings at or near 20%) the possible range of casualties implied by our data is:


Estimated number of deaths from conflict since 2003


Margin of error on finding at or near 20% (on sample of c. 2,160)


Maximum estimated number of deaths from conflict since 2003


Minimum estimated number of deaths from conflict since 2003
% households with deaths

20.2%


1.7%


21.9%


18.5%
Mean casualties per household (of those with at least one death)

1.26





1.26


1.26
Est. # h/holds in Iraq

4,050,597





4,050,597


4,050,597
Estimated total number of casualties

1,033,239





1,120,220


946,258
Base: 2,163 Iraqi adults answering question

Detailed analysis (which is available on our website) indicates that over two-fifths of households in Baghdad have lost a family member, higher than in any other area of the country. Meanwhile among those willing to declare their doctrine (and for quite obvious reasons about half those interviewed prefer to simply describe themselves as Muslims) those from Sunni households (33%) were significantly more likely to say the conflict had claimed a household member. The respective figure for Shias being half that figure (16%).

Research Methodology:

§ Results based on face-to-face interviews amongst a nationally representative sample of 2,414 adults aged 18+. Interviews conducted throughout Iraq - 1,824 in urban areas and 590 around rural sampling points.

§ The survey methodology utilized multi-stage random probability sampling and covers fifteen of Iraq’s eighteen governorates. Overall 112 unique sampling points were covered – 92 in urban areas and 20 in rural locations.

§ For reasons surrounding interviewer safety Karbala and Al Anbar were not included in this research. Irbil is also excluded as the local authorities refused our fieldwork team a permit to operate. We feel that the net result of these exclusions –two areas of relatively high volatility since 2003 and one relatively stable - is that the casualty estimates reported are unlikely to overstate the actual figure.

§ The first batch of interviews was completed August 12th – 19th 2007 with the ‘rural booster’ conducted 20th – 24th September, 2007.

§ At the 95% confidence level the ‘margin of error’ on the sample who answered (2,163) is +2.1%. This figure is applicable to findings at or near 50% while for findings in the region of 20% this margin drops to +1.7%

§ Full results and data tabulations are available at http://www.opinion.co.uk/newsroom

§ IIACSS (Independent Institute for Administration and Civil Society Studies) is a polling/ research company established in Iraq in 2003 and which has a network of interviewers covering all regions of the country. Further information about IIACSS and its founding director Dr. Munqith Dagher can be found within the relevant news article in the Newsroom section of ORB’s website.

§ ORB is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules.

For further information please contact Allan Hyde on 020 7611 5270 or email ahyde@opinion.co.uk

The Opinion Research Business

34 Bedford Row

London

WC1R 4JH

Tel: 020 7611 5270

http://www.opinion.co.uk

See also their:

New Casualty Tabs.pdf
MRS story.pdf

Add comment January 28th, 2008

http://psychoanalystsopposewar.org/blog/2008/01/





January 2008 - Update on Iraqi Casualty Data

Further survey work undertaken by ORB, in association with its research partner IIACSS, confirms our earlier estimate that over 1,000,000 Iraqi citizens have died as a result of the conflict which started in 2003.

Following responses to ORB’s earlier work, which was based on survey work undertaken in primarily urban locations, we have conducted almost 600 additional interviews in rural communities. By and large the results are in line with the ‘urban results’ and we now estimate that the death toll between March 2003 and August 2007 is likely to have been of the order of 1,033,000. If one takes into account the margin of error associated with survey data of this nature then the estimated range is between 946,000 and 1,120,000.

Further information about the research, our calculations, questionnaire wording and data tables is available by clicking on the links below. Also available is an article providing background on IIACSS and its founding director Dr. Munqith Dagher.

Revised Casulaty Data - Press release.doc
New Casualty Tabs.pdf
MRS story.pdf

http://www.opinion.co.uk/Newsroom_details.aspx?NewsId=88

Really? Shit, son, that day can't come soon enough for the likes of me.