I am having a problem I've never had before during any other grow.

Here's the sitch:

I received two different batches of clones from two different sources. Both are kush strains (one is MasterKush and the other is Bubba Kush). The Master is MUCH better stock than the Bubba, in that they were larger stronger and overall just much better looking than the Bubba to begin with.

Both varieties were well-rooted before I put them into 16 oz cups (with drainage in the bottom and the sides of the cups) filled with a 70/30 mix of Fox Farms Happy Frog Soil and Perlite. The Master has been planted for roughly 2.5 weeks, while the Bubba has been planted for roughly 1.5 weeks... all are under PLENTY of flouros (at about 2" from the tops) until they go under HID this weekend. Neither batch has been "fed" with any liquid ferts since planting, because, in my previous experience, the Happy Frog has plenty of what small green plants need for about 3 weeks.

I used BioBizz Organic Root stimulator (diluted spray according to label directions) at planting on the Bubba Kush, as this was recommended by the propagator.

From this point out, both batches have been treated EXACTLY the same as one another, and exactly the same as every other run I've ever done. As I said, plants are currently under lots and lots of flouros 24/0; the growspace is about 80 degrees F and runs at 40-45% humidity.

Last Friday, I noticed a TINY spot of Powdery Mildew on one leaf of one Bubba Kush plant. I immediately treated with organic Neem concentrate (diluted spray, according to the label instructions). I treated ALL the plants as I've had a runaway PM problem in a past crop and it was DEVASTATING (but that was when my humidity was completely uncontrolled and I had HUGE swings between day and night temps leading to condensation and a PERFECT climate for PM to thrive). So I treat with NEEM for 3 days (the label says treat for 7) and all of the sudden the Bubba Kush starts exhibiting classic signs of Mg Deficiency. The leaves were folding in half, upwards like tacos. A day later, the Master was doing it as well.

Various plants are now displaying various signs of an overall nutrient lockout. Some plants with red stems (P), some with yellow new growth (N), some with "rust" - ALL with taco (maybe even some tightly rolled burrito) leaves.

Both sets of plants were saturated at planting with PH'd water w/Superthrive vitamins. The MasterKush has been watered ONCE since that point and is just about ready for more water now.
ALL water/superthrive that has gone in at any point was between 6.3-6.5 PH (I have a NEW Hanna Combo Pen that I calibrate at 7.01 and 4.01 each and every time).

The TDS on my tap water is 108 (and yes I calibrate my PPM every time with the appropriate conversion factor as well).

So, when we tell the guy at the grow shop all of this (we were going in to check on getting a sediment and chlorine filter for our water), he says it sounds like we need CALCIUM, as we have a total nute lockout (what I figured was wrong, but not a solution I'd thought of). He lives in our town, and uses the same water we do and said he hasn't ever needed filtration. He said that at the most, we need to let our water sit out and agitate it with an air-stone to get rid of some of the chlorine and probably don't need filtration at this point.

Basically, he said that a lack of Calcium would cause an NPK and Micronute lockout and it sounded to him like that is what was going on. We bought some organic Calcium Liquid which he told us to foliar feed along with some of our FF Grow Big Liquid.

I haven't done anything to the plants yet, as I wanted to check in with some folks here to see if they agree with the diagnosis and potential fix.

I'm not saying it CAN'T be Calcium... I'm just wondering why I'd be having this problem NOW, for the first time, when I've always used this same water and this same soil??? These are new strains for me; maybe that has something to do with it?

Could the Neem spray have had an adverse effect?

Is an H2O ppm of 108 a problem? Should I get a sediment filter anyway?

What do you all think?

Any input or ideas will be much appreciated.

Okay, so I figure any "real" diagnosis will require some pics, as there are some signs of nutrient lock-out, but "symptoms" vary somewhat from plant to plant and containers are a bit too moist for my liking.

Upon reading up, it seems some folks say the folding could be heat stress - others think the leaves are folding to get rid of excess moisture.

I don't know, but with a tap PPM of just over 100, I'd think that my Calcium levels would be more than adequate, especially considering I've ALWAYS used this same water and never had a problem. I don't want to add more Calcium, if my water is already too hard, you know?

Anyway, onto the pics:

Here, you can see the bit of "rust" on the plants lower leaves, while upper leaves are folded up like "tacos."


Here are some VERY folded, almost "rolled-up" leaves.


This plant displays yellowing, twisting and crispy edges.


This one is Drooping and Yellowing; stems are becoming red.


Finally, this "group photo" shows some yellowing such as a mild N deficiency, which really shouldn't be happening in new nutrient rich soil, unless nutes are being locked out, right?


Every bit of liquid I put in the soil or spray on the leaves is ALWAYS PH'd to 6.3-6.5. The only other thing I can think to check is a PH soil sample, but considering this soil comes "ph balanced" and it's only been two weeks and at MOST two waterings, I can't imagine the soil ph is out of whack, yet.

Maybe my hygrometer is off??? The cups do seem to be still damp one week after watering.

Thoughts???

Do you have a way to check the run-off pH?

Dead and crispy edges are usually an indicator of Mg lock.
Mg lock is caused by Ca in the water.
Over 70ppm is considered hard water.

I would try a light foliar spray of Cal Mag Plus.
and switch to RO.

I imagine the Mg in your soil is already bound up.
but when you transplant, if you switch to RO,
then the Ca and Mg in the new soil will be available again.

Gee Witchy that's a tough one seeing it sounds like you've done all the right things and you're certainly not a newbie. Sorry to see you go through all this.

Hmm after all you've done what would I do if my girls were sick and driving me nuts trying to help 'em back to health. It's been awhile without growing, gotta love NY, but I think pics 1 & 3 are bringing back memories.

I would pop one or two out of the cups and see how my roots are coming along to see if they are healthy and evenly growing throughout the medium. I once found uneven dry/moist soil due to roots all to one side drying out while the soil seemed moist to sight & touch causing all kinds of wacked-out leaf problems. Probably not common but been there done that. Also you may find out you're blessed with super-awesome root growth and they're ready for bigger containers already. Learned that one at a loss with a new strain I expected to perform in the same time frame as a strain I was familiar with and most choked to death before I figured that one out

When nothing would make sense I'd fall back on my old stand-by. I would flush the containers with 2-3 times container size with ph'd distilled water with 1 drop of Superthrive per gallon and very mild, like 1/8th strength, nutes. After they got over the drenching and started to perk up they'd usually start to look much better. Once to the point of almost too dry I'd moisten 'em a little and start working them back up to a regular feeding program with 1/4 strength to start.

Also got ahold of a bag of quality soil mix that somehow got contaminated somewhere along its' trip to the grow shop. My guess is that it got set in some sort of liquid, nutes or something got spilled on it and no one realized it and it ended up in my containers with an uneven nute profile poisoning my girlies. Looked alot like pic #3. I flushed them with ph'd distilled, or RO don't remember, water with no additives, just pure water and repotted them in fresh soil mix and in about a week's time they perked right up.

That's about all I can come up with. Wish I had more for you. DI don't have any Kush growing experience but it's great meds so, as I always, the best to you with everything and may you see your sick girls to a health harvest.

I can do almost anything if someone tells me how, LOL. Seriously though, what is the PH of the water supposed to be when you pour it in to test run off?



And to think, the guy at the Hydroshop said it was "fine." Luckily, only a couple of plants have the crispy edges... so far!



Unfortunately, I already purchased the organic Calcium spray (derived from limestone and organic vinegar) and all the shops are closed for the night.

Is there a way to foliar feed the liquid Calcium I already have, combined with maybe a little Epsom salt, in substitution (I'd be missing the Iron component though)? OR do you strongly feel that Cal-Mag Plus would be necessary?



So, to recap:

1. Nutrients (particularly Mg) were locked out by the Calcium in my Hard Water.

2. A Foliar Spray of Calcium, Magnesium and Iron would quickly get my plants the micronutes they need while those elements are all bound up in their current containers

3. When I transplant into larger containers, the nutrients in the new soil will be available to my plants providing I reduce the hardness of my water and it is properly PH'd.

Did I understand you correctly?

The guy at the grow shop recommended we also foliar feed with a "green" food (FF Grow Big/Superthrive/H2O) in addition to the Calcium. Do you agree with that???

Any clue why this would just now become a problem with the same water?

Well... I guess a garden is always an adventure

Thanks so much for your kind reply.

Use water at your usual pH

To check the pH of your runoff is a breeze.

Set your container into a larger container like a tupperware bowl.

Set an upside-down coffee cup or something in the bowl to set your container on so it will drain without sitting in the runoff

Water with your usual pH until it runs out of the container into the catch bowl.

Test the ph of the runoff in the catch bowl

That's it

From the reading you'll have an idea of the pH of your medium & the TDS too if you like

Thanks, Stoney!

So, I did test my run-off and here's my results:

Water IN - PH'd to 6.3 at 86 PPM

Water OUT - 6.6 PH and 356 PPM

Does this explain any of my issues?

I'm still holding off 'till the morning before I do anything... I just got a new "weather station" to help give me a definite picture of Temps and RH, to be sure.

You are a quick learner.

The run-off pH should be about 6.2

So the pH alone could be the problem.

.

Hi Witchy Just checking in hoping all your babies are getting over their "flu" and on their way to a healthy life

Well... they are looking better in that they haven't gotten any worse. PH is probably part of the problem, but I'm doubting it is a very serious deficiency or even a MAJOR lock-out as again, the only shared and pronounced symptom is that leaf folding. Only the same two plants have any other leaf damage and I personally think I've found the BIGGEST issue of all:

ROOT BIND!!!

Have a look:






As you can see, my "babies" are well-ready for the transplant they'll be getting tomorrow.

I did get a new temp. station and their micro-environment is at 40-45% humidity and about 73 degrees F at the canopy. I've done absolutely nothing else to them, and won't until I transplant tomorrow into one gallon bags with New Happy Frog soil and much better water that will be de-chlorinated and PH'd lower to try and reduce the run-off PH more toward the optimal level Earl has described.

In my estimation, the stunted growth, slightly yellow new growth and "droop" despite being moist could all be caused by root-bind. The "taco" leaves ARE most likely lockout (Mg) and since Calcium is probably bound up too, my plants can't get any NPK nutrition from the soil.

After they are in their (hopefully) happy new home, in larger containers under HID, I'll post another update.

Thanks again to all for helping.

BTW, would a PH in of about 5.5-5.8 be too LOW to get the run-off down in the low sixes??? It seems that 6.3-6.5 makes the soil too close to 7. Suggestions on PH IN (H2O and nutes)?