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#1335152 - 07/18/07 01:49 PM
Re: Church to pay 660 million in clergy abuse case
[Re: divil]
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Ganja God
Registered: 06/21/00
Posts: 7136
Loc: Vancouver, BC
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Quote:
You say i have a weak intellect Chris, i never maintained i was a scholar.You say the average estimate of pedophiles is 2% in the world whom are not priests and that it is between 4% to 6% of priests.This makes my point because there are an estimated 3.5billion males in the world, and 406,000 priests so that makes it 700,000 pedophiles going by your statistics in the world and 24,000 in the priesthood.That was my point, you can all argue away, but i still say root them all out of everywhere, and also what about the religions that eat babies? 
That figure was from the male population. What religions eat babies? Wierd that would make you post a smiley face... but then again who understands Cathoholics and their strange addiciton to faith?
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#1335153 - 07/18/07 02:11 PM
Re: Church to pay 660 million in clergy abuse case
[Re: rtav]
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Ganja God
Registered: 06/21/00
Posts: 7136
Loc: Vancouver, BC
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Quote:
divil, why are you arguing about a number that is basically a victim-reported molestation rate? Now, I don't care enough about the church or the chillens to have read all of this dross, but a quick scan showed the 4% to be the rate of _reported_ abusers over some period. And gosh, 10%, if it's in a movie it must be true! I wonder how they get these numbers, survey the priests?
People with axes to grind against a basically infinite source of money will say pretty much anything.
The simple fact is that the vast majority of priests are good people into serving their communities in their own ways which, even according to the "stats" in this thread, do not include molesting children.
Personally, I find intellectual property much more dangerous and damaging to humans than child molestation. Child molestation, whatever it is, is likely something we've been doing for forever, so we likely have evolved quite good adaptations to deal with it. Allowing greedy people to assert a property right over words they can't even see fit to keep inside their own skulls---now that is dangerous.
I'd blame the church for that, too. After all, we need IP lest people print vernacular bibles that step all over the true word of God.
Although Child molestation may not be a moral issue to you, it is a concern for many and the damage it has caused is very evident. I've met victims of Priestly abuse, such as John Flash Gordon and I am sure his life would have taken a vastly different course had he not suffered at the hands of the clergy.
Also, dismissing a film you have never seen off handedly shows your own lack of intellectual credibility. It is a very well made and researched film, you should see it. The 10% figure was a figure of known pedophiles from the main American seminary. Also, we have the whole history of the Catholic Church to condemn them for, not just the recent exposing of their molestation problems.
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#1335156 - 07/18/07 04:21 PM
Re: Church to pay 660 million in clergy abuse case
[Re: divil]
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Ganja God
Registered: 06/21/00
Posts: 7136
Loc: Vancouver, BC
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Quote:
Do you want to hear my joke about the lumberjack?
Your inapropriate jest exposes your inability to discuss rationaly. When in doubt, resort to sarcasm.
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#1335158 - 07/19/07 07:24 AM
Re: Church to pay 660 million in clergy abuse case
[Re: chrisbennett]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/21/04
Posts: 1931
Loc: l7
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Quote:
Although Child molestation may not be a moral issue to you, it is a concern for many and the damage it has caused is very evident. I've met victims of Priestly abuse, such as John Flash Gordon and I am sure his life would have taken a vastly different course had he not suffered at the hands of the clergy.
The damage it has caused to what? People still get fed; we have hospitals, schools, ironworkers, all sorts of progress. I'm not sure what "damage" this is supposed to be. What is the difference between someone being molested into a poor life and someone being caused to have a poor life by an automobile accident? The molestation is somehow "worse" because it is the product of a "choice" by another human? Well, so is this driving stuff---if there is really a concern about the "damage" done to others by people's voluntary choices---choices that they may not even realize are actually harmful---then driving is a far better focus than pedophilia. I suspect the number of pedophiles who actually maim their victims to the point of death is rather small. Automobiles do this all of the time.
So it's not that I don't think of it as a moral issue---I just think of moral issues as ones that actually prevent people from satisfying their basic needs. Being molested is not a good thing, but it doesn't in general cause one tp starve to death---allowing capitalists to control the food distribution infrastructure allows people to starve to death, tho.
I just think there are much better whipping boys for righteous indignation than priests/the catholic church is all, especially when you consider the good done by the vast majority of priests.
Quote:
Also, dismissing a film you have never seen off handedly shows your own lack of intellectual credibility. It is a very well made and researched film, you should see it. The 10% figure was a figure of known pedophiles from the main American seminary. Also, we have the whole history of the Catholic Church to condemn them for, not just the recent exposing of their molestation problems.
"known pedophiles"? How do they know they are pedophiles? Are these self-reported pedophiles? Priests convicted of a sex-crime? Anyway, being a pedophile is not a crime---unless you believe in thoughtcrime. Child molestation is certainly a crime, tho, as it should be.
_________________________
"Dreams are lies"
"Rtav writes well but has poor attitude." --JodieGR
CONTRA MUNDUM!
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#1335159 - 07/19/07 07:56 AM
Re: Church to pay 660 million in clergy abuse case
[Re: rtav]
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Old hand
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 975
Loc: Toronto
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I suspect the number of pedophiles who actually maim their victims to the point of death is rather small. Automobiles do this all of the time.
Using this logic, we should never try to stop or punish any sort of crime or immorality because there will always be something considered even worse to clean up.
How you can compare automobile accidents to molestation is beyond me. Car accidents are just that: accidents. People can make bad choices while driving but how many car accidents do you think are the direct result of a conscious choice to crash the car? Molestation, on the other hand, is a conscious choice to commit the act itself. It is no accident, and comparing it to a car wreck is specious reasoning indeed.
Quote:
I just think there are much better whipping boys for righteous indignation than priests/the catholic church is all, especially when you consider the good done by the vast majority of priests.
It seems to me that the only people on the "whipping post" in this matter are the specific priests who committed the crimes and the church leadership that covered it up. Have there been calls to disband the entire Roman Catholic Church because of this scandal? Is someone calling for the Pope's head? Most people just want the criminals and their enablers to pay for their crimes. You're defending the entire church and, in the process, seem to be defending the criminals as well.
Quote:
The damage it has caused to what? People still get fed; we have hospitals, schools, ironworkers, all sorts of progress.
You're absolutely right. Who cares about the all those kids who have had to suffer this abuse? As long as life goes on and we can still get our coffee and donut in the morning, why should we care about whose ass or mouth a priest sticks his dick into? Those kids can still walk and eat and laugh. As long as no physical harm comes to them (like those darn car accidents), why should we care?
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#1335160 - 07/19/07 08:28 AM
Re: Church to pay 660 million in clergy abuse case
[Re: Slainte]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/21/04
Posts: 1931
Loc: l7
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Quote:
Using this logic, we should never try to stop or punish any sort of crime or immorality because there will always be something considered even worse to clean up.
I never said we shouldn't punish things that are crimes just that this is a relatively tiny problem made to seem much larger than it is by an enormous $$$ figure. It is empircally a tiny problem because society is still quite functional, no? I mean, gosh, look at all of that production =]
Quote:
How you can compare automobile accidents to molestation is beyond me. Car accidents are just that: accidents. People can make bad choices while driving but how many car accidents do you think are the direct result of a conscious choice to crash the car? Molestation, on the other hand, is a conscious choice to commit the act itself. It is no accident, and comparing it to a car wreck is specious reasoning indeed.
Driving is a conscious choice with predictable results as time, number of drivers increase. more drivers + more time = more collisions. People accept the tradeoff of maimed bodies for transportation convenience. Perhaps some people also accept the tradeoff of molested children for fine priestly work? I wouldn't, but, then, I also wouldn't accept personal automobiles, and a lot of people do...
Quote:
Most people just want the criminals and their enablers to pay for their crimes.
Sounds great. So it's irrelevant that they're members of the priestly class, so why's there this hoohah about how N% of priests are pedophiles like it matters? They're not priests because they're criminals; they're criminals who happen to be priests. This says nothing about the priestly class in general. Having pedophiles flock to positions of authority over children is just what will happen when a society creates positions that have such authority over children.
Quote:
You're absolutely right. Who cares about the all those kids who have had to suffer this abuse? As long as life goes on and we can still get our coffee and donut in the morning, why should we care about whose ass or mouth a priest sticks his dick into? Those kids can still walk and eat and laugh. As long as no physical harm comes to them (like those darn car accidents), why should we care?
I don't think I said that. It's a problem---it's just less serious than other problems that I never see much talk about here---and, in fact, I've experienced outright hosility when I mention things that are REAL problems that have real impacts on peoples' abilities to meet their basic needs, like intellectual property and private property.
To me this is sort of like how people get all upset about animal abuse. It is more the sign of a decadent, decaying society whose members cannot hope to solve real problems, so they have decided to settle on something as trite---albeit soluble---as possible. It's a lot harder to condemn people who drive cars than priests who diddle children---but which causes more harm to the world?
_________________________
"Dreams are lies"
"Rtav writes well but has poor attitude." --JodieGR
CONTRA MUNDUM!
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#1335161 - 07/19/07 09:11 AM
Re: Church to pay 660 million in clergy abuse case
[Re: rtav]
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Ganja God
Registered: 06/21/00
Posts: 7136
Loc: Vancouver, BC
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RTAV- I never said we shouldn't punish things that are crimes just that this is a relatively tiny problem made to seem much larger than it is by an enormous $$$ figure. It is empircally a tiny problem because society is still quite functional, no? I mean, gosh, look at all of that production =] "
Child moelestation is not a tiny problem. Society is far from functional, are you aware of all the problems in the world? Even environmental problems have their root in religious beliefs about man's domination over the earth. Also how about religious wars. Drug addicts, long term criminals and others are often the victims of child molesters.
RTAV
Driving is a conscious choice with predictable results as time, number of drivers increase. more drivers + more time = more collisions. People accept the tradeoff of maimed bodies for transportation convenience. Perhaps some people also accept the tradeoff of molested children for fine priestly work? I wouldn't, but, then, I also wouldn't accept personal automobiles, and a lot of people do..."
Wow, that is such flawed logic. So stupid in fact it is not even worth commenting on. But waht do you mean by fine priestly work?
Most people just want the criminals and their enablers to pay for their crimes.
RTAV- Sounds great. So it's irrelevant that they're members of the priestly class, so why's there this hoohah about how N% of priests are pedophiles like it matters? They're not priests because they're criminals; they're criminals who happen to be priests. This says nothing about the priestly class in general. Having pedophiles flock to positions of authority over children is just what will happen when a society creates positions that have such authority over children."
Actually it is a lot less of a problem having people who have authority over children who have normal adult relationships. The clergy is so prone to abuse because of unnatural celibacy laws.
RTAV "It's a problem---it's just less serious than other problems that I never see much talk about here---and, in fact, I've experienced outright hosility when I mention things that are REAL problems that have real impacts on peoples' abilities to meet their basic needs, like intellectual property and private property."
Your need to plaigerize the works of others and get a free ride is no comparison at all as to the needs to protect children from child molestation. Maybe you should try coming up with some intelectual property of your own. Or maybe you should join the Man-Boy-Love-Assocation as you seem so keen on defending pedophiles?
RTAV "To me this is sort of like how people get all upset about animal abuse. It is more the sign of a decadent, decaying society whose members cannot hope to solve real problems, so they have decided to settle on something as trite---albeit soluble---as possible. It's a lot harder to condemn people who drive cars than priests who diddle children---but which causes more harm to the world?"
The idea that man has the right to abuse animals has it's roots in religious beliefs that make them souless, mindless creatures ready for our exploitation. I think we all know who we need to keep away from our kids and pets now.
So car drivers are as bad as children diddlers in your "superior" view? And those who care about animals are "decadent"? I think it is time for RTAV to quit his decadent University and get a real job at McDonalds. Obviously the student loans and his parent's money is going to waste. 
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