what do you mean its abstract...that means it doesnt exist...

abstract, according to the deffinition on my computer is:

Existing in thought or as an idea but not having physical or concrete evidence....

so thanks for proving my point...once again pretty sounding sentences hypnotize you and make you feel like you are right...why do religious people keep doing that???

I wouldn't call myself a "religous person". I am a supernatural scientist

And part time psycho-analyst

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what do you mean its abstract...that means it doesnt exist...

abstract, according to the deffinition on my computer is:

Existing in thought or as an idea but not having physical or concrete evidence....

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I think we are getting very close to the crux of the problem here.

To me abstraction means more than that. Abstraction is a representation of something, by means of something else. Abstraction is when you create a generalized shell of an idea, without explicit references to the idea itself.

Very hard to explain with words, here let me use a parable-

"Jesus was walking with his disciples when he turned to them and said, ..."
aww forget it!

Here's some more relevant notes on abstraction-

"Complexity reduction
Abstraction typically results in complexity reduction leading to a simpler conceptualization of a domain in order to facilitate processing or understanding of many specific scenarios in a generic way."


"Thought process
In philosophical terminology, abstraction is the thought process wherein ideas are distanced from objects."

"Abstraction uses a strategy of simplification, wherein formerly concrete details are left ambiguous, vague, or undefined."

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Q.- And why are they left undefined???

Because they allow you (or whatever the subject is) to connect to it in your own unique way. You "plug yourself in". An example of this is, think of Abstract Art. A painting may not have a precisely defined meaning. The viewer relates to it through their own interpretation. But unlike noise or junk art, the good abstract artist knows how to evoke certain ideas in their audience, creating a type of response that can't be achieved in literal interpretations of art.

Like your view of spiritual nothingness, picasso draws flat 2-dimensional people, or sculptures of human beings full of holes.

super natural scientist is just a pseudo-scientist...because in the broadest sense, science (from the Latin scientia, 'knowledge') refers to any systematic methodology which attempts to collect accurate information about the shared reality and to model this in a way which can be used to make reliable, concrete and quantitative predictions about events, in line with hypotheses proven by experiment.

whereas, Pseudoscience is any kind of knowledge, belief, or practice that claims to be scientific but does not follow the scientific method. Pseudosciences may appear scientific, but they do not adhere to the basic requirements (the testability and repeatability) of the scientific method. As such, since these practices are not proven by the scientific method, they are not considered science until they can be proven by objective evidence.

and about the rest of the post, i understand your personal view of a god, and personally as long as you dont vote according to beliefs that aret facts, and you keep your personal god in your own head like a shy kid with an imaginary friend then i dont care...you can entertain your self with fancy ideas that have no proof if you please...and im really not being sarcastic, and though it may sound mean, im just saying it as real as i see it.

yay another "bright"

welcome and please stay and explore the other threads and add some intelligent input to them!!!

lol i should be a moderator for this thread, even though this thread should not be censored ever.

just being welcomed by a green name is much more pleasing.

What I was talking about when I introduce the concept of abstraction was, that many of these spiritual or philosophical concepts can't be taken literally. Books like the bible, parables and mythology use Analogy to teach a lesson about a deeper meaning. Sometimes those meanings can't be easily expressed in words. They are abstract concepts.

Then Skitzo asked what do I mean be abstraction... which is why I tried to explain it. I admit it's not easy, but you can argue with the dictionary definitions I gave, to the people at Wikipedia/Answers.com

-> "Saying something can't be explained or put into words hinders understanding"

I never said that it CAN'T be explained, I said it isn't easy to explain. Abstract concepts cannot easily be put into words... otherwise, if they could they wouldn't be abstract, would they.

-> "A better way to 'plug in', is to give us the data you used to make your conclusion. Then we could put ourselves in the same situation and confirm how valid and sound these conclusions are when analyzed rationally."

First of all, let me just say I do not really wish to lead people to a conclusion. Because I am a "process", I have not come to a conclusion. If anything, I only wish to lead them to the point where they can make their own conclusion. Not by dogmatically following ideas brought them by other people, who are also simply born, lived and died in a finite lifespan. Although, we should try to LEARN from others as much as possible, the free spirit takes what they want from any source that they want, and like food choose whats best to feed their soul. I'm saying, if you don't like it, just walk out of the church brother.

If God existes as they claim, would he condemn an honest man just because he will not bow before the pulpit? Well if that's the case, so let me be judged for trying to be my real self, but I will not be like those who give their lip service in ritual prayer on Sunday, then tell people to go fuck themselves on Monday. Ritualistic behaviour has always confounded me. Why would any God even care about that?

We were talking about abstraction, not literal representations. Many religions or philosophical ideas use metaphors, abstraction and seemingly irrational statements, which when internalized by the student or learner help them come to a new understanding about themself in relation to the world.

For example, the zen Koans...

Abstraction means, making something vague or less detailed, so that it becomes more universal. It might be hard to explain because, it's too simple. But in terms of data, in computer programming or mathematics, abstraction means using variables instead of literal values. So that the calling function can plug it's own values into the "abstracted" interface, and get it's own answer

-> "Art points one in the intended direction of the artists choice."

Well, many forms of ABSTRACT art have no literal meaning or specifically intended direction. They intend that the observer brings their own experiences and interpretation to the work. Modern art seeks to escape the confines of literal, fixed representations, which are seen as a form of tyranny by the artist onto the observer. Freedom for the artist is seen as freedom for the observer, too, in having some general intended meaning (but not necessarily a rational one) and allowing the observer to interact with the art, organically. And exactly, word for word the very same problem exists in the literal interpretation of religious parables, myths, or legends, which is the tyranny of words.

well tbud, the jack ass who abstracted something as important and controlling and all encompassing as religion was a jack ass and an idiot.

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well tbud, the jack ass who abstracted something as important and controlling and all encompassing as religion was a jack ass and an idiot.

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not just ONE person, but it comes from all of us. It's the other hemisphere of the human brain-



The Apollonian vs the Dionysian