do you have any control over the particle size?

Oh, on the issue of capacity... kind-of. If you check out NM's site, you can see how they have configured the NM6 & NM3 for size. Essentially, they've got an NM3 feeding a 3'x3' or 4'x4' - ports configured for either small plants to term or cloning station. They show a NM6 for two 3'x3' or 4'x4'. Stating this stuff from memory... Also, they're incorporating a hybrid ebb & flow table in tandem.

Also, they've got "reports" of success by utilizing the NM3 running 24/7 to root a 4'x8' cloning station, independent of flood cycling.

It seems to me, that if a combined flood & drain technique were utilized with an ultrasonic "fog" zone, one should instead go the route of DWC... cheaper, easier & proven.

I'm a little bummed that the theory isn't panning out. Then again, I've really been on my own here & would like to know if perhaps I'm the real problem... Nothing to reference against.

Did run across someone at a shop that tried the system as a display. Claimed they ran a NM6 exclusively to a 4'x8' flood table with varying short-term fruiting & herbal crops. Had a power failure, returned to dessimated root system, never did recover & those that did finish flowering were dismal. The opinion was that it would've supported to term had the root system not been destroyed...

And, yes, I guess you could hook another unit up, but then you would be blowing $900 or so on the nute delivery system alone. Not to mention using 10g of water every day, unless you recycle.

The claimed benefits of the "fogger" are decreased nute & water consumption, increased simplification in nute delivery... anyway, you can read the advertisements out there. I'm here to get the real deal or at least do my part to those ends...

Vapor size... no control. I've read threads at other websites that that discuss misters, micron size & leaf surface structure... think it was the one at <biocontrols.com>, but not for sure off the top of my head.

Anyway, conclusion they were promoting was that 20-50 micron in width is ideal, where uniformity of vapor dimensions was important. Again, off memory, but the reception sites on whatever leaf or root sample they were using had absorption sites that ranged from 3-100 microns.

Supposedly, the nebulizer is a "dry" fog at 3-5 micron average size. At this point, I'm again starting to regurgitate the advertisement claims...

Trying the Wet Betty (foliar surficant that AN says can be added to reservoir as well). Hopefully this assists in condensing on the roots themselves to increase water availability. The product packaging is rather nice as well...

Another clarification on capacity / size. It was always assumed that plants would be induced soon after cloning / rooting (say 6"), taking advantage of a SOG spacing structure. So, when looking to fill a 4'x6' tray in the SOG tradition, chose to space plant sites at 6" on-centers in width x 8" OC in length, staggered... or 62 plant sites per tray.

Want another spin on the idea? What about taking this vertical?

One of the conceived benefits in utilizing a fogger was that a 4'x6' flood table could effectively be stood on it's side to make a "wall". Take 3 additional trays & surround a vertically run, air-cooled light chamber... say two 1000's or three 600's. Very similar to other vertical gardens out there, e.g., The Cage.

Add another variable of control... allow for the vertical trays to slide toward and away from the light source, say 2-3' of mobility (on rails, rollers, ceiling mount, whatever). Thus allowing one to always have the plant canopy at an ideal, or near ideal distance from the lights by being able to slide the entire tray in tandem to plant growth.

With the same strain per table / wall, similar growth patterns or uniformity would allow for the "Wall of Green" idea to perform. Also, you could effectively run one tray per species per two week cycle, or run one strain on a perpetual, true SOG style, except vertical. There are a few rotational options here...

Overall, I envision the walls to "breathe" in & out as they grow through the cycles...

It would reason out that one could effectively light two 4'x6' standard, horizontal ebb&flow trays with two 1000's on a light mover. This should give near peak levels of lumens, somewhat well distributed. One could effectively double this yield IF a nute delivery system could accomodate the vertical layout.

Enter the fogger... in theory at least. Any ideas out there on how to adapt this initial goal with current dilemmas of adequate water delivery?

Accommodating for this on a flat, horizontal layout should be relatively easy, e.g., Coco-Tek mats or something similar. (Open to suggestions here too...) Going vertical brings into consideration the capillary action & fiber orientation of the medium.

Again, the goal being to find something that will hold water well along with large amounts of oxygen. Should be able to absorb water vapors in fog form and yet drain to large quantities of free standing water.

Leaving the specifics of the "how to" aside, what could be used to hybridize the growth chamber (a vertical, 4'x6'x8" deep, mostly sealed ebb&flow table) with the NM delivery system to allow for additional water supply?

Can one think of a sterile medium that could perhaps be placed under the root ball of the inserted baby? Don't want to fill the entire chamber with a medium & go route of drip or periodic feeds of free flowing nute solution though...

What would be the method of delivery? I'm looking for something that could be occasionally be watered, most probably by some manual form. Assume root zone accessable as well... got an idea on that already... The less frequent the better, but I imagine the plants will determine this more so than anything else.

Planning to deliver most of necessary nutes through fog while medium primarily there to provide for additional water. Condensate from fog will also "feed" the medium, so weekly flushing will be required.

Thinking out loud now...

why not install a couple water mist nozzles and give the roots a good soak once an hour or so. It would take care of your water problem, while staying with the aero in theory. and could be a relatively cheap solution.

Wow your one adventurist soul. wish I could help more. Ive seen the ads but never seen it in action, but youve got my attention and I will be studying.

How much volume of air/mist is circulated through the root chambers? Does the mist just sit there? Could you have a fan to circulate the mist around in the roots?

If the misters were in the chamber you could just leave the ferts running and excess could feed the roots when they reach the bottom. But if they use the unit I saw awhile back that looked like a box connected by a hose to the grow.

Is the fogger trying to push against pressure of a sealed chamber?

I see the first post where you say you're running open ended. Could you use a fan to force mist in a loop through both chambers?

Said I'd respond, so here you go...

"How much volume of air/mist is circulated through the root chambers? Does the mist just sit there? Could you have a fan to circulate the mist around in the roots?"

Running 6 nebulizer heads now, or two 3-head units (you can get them from NM in 3, 6 & 10 head configurations, but also go through distributors to get ultrasonic nebulizers in component form). Running 24/7, they convert approximately 5 gallons of nute solution every 26 hours. So, this equates to roughly 24 oz per hour. The NM website claims consumption @ 22 oz per hour.

The NM fog unit itself, not the full system that includes flood trays & all, has a plastic body that holds from 1.5-1.9 gallons, depending upon where they drilled the float valve hole which doesn't adjust. This also effects how much fog is actually produced, the water level over the nebulizer head that is.

Residing inside the NM tank are the neb heads, which has air pushed through it by an adjustable speed fan- very similar to ones used to cool electronic components. Supposedly the speed of the fan has an overall effect on water consumption (presumably because the fog doesn't have time to condense back into the nute solution while in the NM tank...?), but it does not have any effect on total fog output... just on how hard/fast it is blown out the NM tank.

So, the unit does have a fan to push the fog to where ever one intends for it to go. The fan speed seems to simply allow the user ability to control for distance the fog is pumped, or through a dense root mass... hopefully at least. It is my experience thus far that one can feed three 2'x4' trays on the lowest fan speed without any problems of circulating the fog evenly throughout the root chamber/sealed Botanicare trays. More on your last question...

"If the misters were in the chamber you could just leave the ferts running and excess could feed the roots when they reach the bottom. But if they use the unit I saw awhile back that looked like a box connected by a hose to the grow."

Yes, yes. The one I am using is the box with a hose, and the full system they sell incorporates a flood table/reservoir tank. They utilize a pump to intermitently flood the bottom of the root chamber which is continuously fed with the fog. Presumably, they either had the same issues that I am experiencing with adequate water levels, especially for thirsty plants like ours, or they compromised to make the product more palatable to a wider, more traditional or cautious market...

And yes, if you wanted to keep the roots in a chamber with nute solution, my observation from before still stands... that a DWC (Deep Water Culture) system is easier, cheaper & proven. The perceived benefit of the fog system is that one can avoid most of the problems associated with recirculating systems & that of oxygenation. Furthermore, if the benefits of reduced water flow, nute stability, elimination of pumps, filters & lines, could be realized, then a great deal of flexibility is afforded in system design. For example, going vertical & doing it practically... What if I click my heals three times or pray to Shiva...? Truly, a major attraction to the fog is design flexibility...

"Is the fogger trying to push against pressure of a sealed chamber? I see the first post where you say you're running open ended. Could you use a fan to force mist in a loop through both chambers?"

Yes, absolutely. Just reasoning it through, if you have air being forced into a closed chamber, you will necessarily increase pressure within that chamber to the point that whatever is trying to force more air in is not powerful enough to overcome the rising back pressure. The fan in question is a computer fan, albeit a stong one at that.

You have to have some means of pressure release, which is not only necessary for the movement of the generated fog, but also to clear out the CO2 & other gaseous by-products of the plant metabolizing. And, of course, to bring in fresh oxygen. The system isn't "open ended" necessarily. Air pressure is releaved through the openings in the neoprene inserts that the plant stalk comes out & also through 1/2" port holes I drilled in the side of the trays to manually regulate pressure release.

Perhaps you were crossing the fact that I am not recirculating the nute solution. Once the fog is created (@ the rate of 24oz per hour), it is forced into the root chamber where it either condenses on the roots, or on the chamber walls & basin. I generally manually drain the trays 2x per day & recover a good chunk of the 5 gallons, but the ppm & pH are obviously altered. I just don't reuse this condensate.

The problem I see with the collection of solution at the bottom of the trays is that it is stagnant water. Yes I add H2O2, but I don't know how long it stays active- the NM tank bumps up to 99F & with the nebulizer, I just don't know. So, I can't even speculate that the accumulated water is highly oxygenated. And, it doesn't seem to keep the entire root mass above the bottom of the tray isn't moist enough during the light cycle, especially when warm. Though the root mass that does sit in the water doesn't appear to be rotting at all... still healthy white. I am now hand spraying the roots with a mix including Wet Betty, Pro Silicate, Jump Start & CalMag+. I do this once every 4 hours for the first 16 hours of the light cycle, then every hour... they really start to dry out (temps are the highest during these hours as well). I can get away without doing this, but they grow slower & all have pronounced drooping by day's end. Takes all night before they perk back up...

I can say, that it appears the NM is nebulizing nutrients at a sufficient rate to properly feed the plants. I see a few deficiencies manifesting, but primarily the problem seems to be with K, now at least. I do add CalMag+ to preempt most of the common deficiencies however. PPM's do rise at a somewhat constant rate of approximately 2-3pts every hour. I'm not sure if something isn't being nebulized & is falling out & accumulating, or if water is simply nebulized at a slightly higher rate. I top it off with pH balanced water every now & then to keep in ppm's in line. pH is spot on the whole time though... kind-of wierd...

Ultimately, the plants seems to want to grow aggressively, but are stiffled by the lack in water. I am experimenting with the idea of using a hybrid where I incorporate a medium of some sort. Rockwool isn't porous enough to allow for the fog to pass through or inside & appears to become too saturated with standing water. I'm tinkering with CocoTek mats & cubes right now. I like the fact that they have so much open space between the bonded fibers, which may allow for fog penetration. My goal is to incorporate a medium that will hold additional water for the plants to access, yet allow for deep fog penetration to fertigate the medium & growing roots. In short, I can still preserve the benefits of design flexibility along with a non-recirculating system that doesn't require it's own water treatment facility... Are we in Kansas yet...?

How do I get low res pics on here that look okay? I have an 8mp camera...tried once to reduce to 100k, but looked so bad...

the best option is to get a free photobucket(or equivalent) account and then link to the photos, you can post high res pics that way.

When I can get more money for some PVC elbows and T's I plan on using 6" PVC to build a mist system with some nebulizers and a ice maker pump or sump pump. Something with a longer shaft to circutate air/mist and pump nute solution to the discs.

The upper pipe will be for the plants and roots. The top T will have the side going into a 90 degree elbow into a 6' piece into another elbow, with a short piece into another elbow, to another 6' piece coming back to an elbow that goes into another T glued below the first T.

This will give about a foot drop between the first T and the lower T so water/nutes won't sit stagnant in the pipes.

The nebulizer discs will be in the leg of the 6" loop fed from pump. The discs will be in a bowl that will keep the solution level 1/8th inch above the discs for best performance with the excess flowing over the edge of the bowl, so there won't be a need for a separate mechanism to control the level of the solution.

The excess solution that overflows the bowl will fall into the upper leg of the loop and flow past all the growing sites placed around the loop back to the lower T and fall back into the set of pipes that will be the reservoir where the pump will pick it up.

In the vertical between the two T's, on the pump shaft is to be mounted a fan that will continually pull the mist around the loop. Any mist that condenses will just flow around the loop back to the res.

But I had not considered oxygen for the roots. So some method of purging the air in the system several times a day will be needed. I'll have to think on this.

I think that with the nebulizers in to loop will create a denser mist than just pumping mist into and through a system and use less nutes than collecting the condensate and tossing it.