Harmful psychological effects do not always manifest for a long time after the event which instigated the problem.
Nevertheless the potential for causing harm is enough to remove the offender from continuing to have the opportunity to violate again.

Nazis are not comparable to anything I have said.Summary execution after a kangaroo court session was the National Socialist Party`s preffered application of justice.The school teacher was given a great amount of conditional leniency which she blatantly ignored.Her actions clearly demonstrated that she could not be trusted to not re-offend.


Again you demonstrate your lack of confidence when you resort to calling me a Nazi.I merely asked you if you lived in a trailer park because your line of reason fits in with someone with a trailer park upbringing.If you are a Pedophile,that is your problem.If I learn about it,then you will really have a problem.

You really should leave the international war profiteers alone because there just isn`t much you can do about them.
On the other hand,you really should do something about the Canadian government`s willingness to be Uncle Sam`s little bitch.That you can do something about.250,000,000 Dollars pilfered by the liberals from your treasury? Nazis?

There are different laws for different states.You can not dispute a harsher sentence given for the same crime someone else got probation for.What you can do is have a good,productive and meaningful life within the law.
Are ye daft? Have you not conceded that the law in this case is clear on the subject of baby raping? Do judges have authority to send you to prison?Or is their sole duty to sit on the bench jacking off crying with the criminals in sympathy because they had a fucked up childhood and cannot obey the law.
I too enjoy smoking weed.Does that make me a criminal? My buddy teases me about that all the time because he got busted. He constantly calls me a worthless criminal. I laugh at him and deny my criminality by reminding him that "They have to catch me first before I call myself a criminal."You can whine about the injustices of the law all you want;it shall do nothing to help you if you get busted and re-offend.Should I ever get caught,I will fulfill my obligations through diversion (drug court:rehab) and have my conviction dropped.After that I am going to smoke weed again.That is all that little child had to do and she would not have to suffer confinement.This process has a tendency to separate the offender from the habitual criminal Yes? No?
How can I have pity for someone that fucks themselves.That is a person who takes everybody with them .

GET THE LANTERNS READY!!!! OH Canada! The conservatives are coming THE CONSERVATIVES ARE COMING!!! Tony and the Queen mum are putting liberals in Leavenworth prison and forcing them to listen to G.Gordon Liddy and Rush Limbaugh.
Thank you CC forum.

"Harmful psychological effects do not always manifest for a long time after the event which instigated the problem."

Right. I can just see the boy, twenty years later - "Damn! She took advantage of my fragile little mojo! I can't trust women anymore! I must become a pedaphilic, necrophilic, scataphilic deviant!"

The fact that nobody has come up with ANY evidence of harm - delayed or not - from any "adult female to teen male" consentual sex crime, speaks volumes about the validity of your position.






"Nevertheless the potential for causing harm is enough to remove the offender from continuing to have the opportunity to violate again."

There's more potential for Coca-Cola vendors causing harm to teens than adult female boy-teen fluffers (and I wouldn't advocate jail in that case either).





"Nazis are not comparable to anything I have said."

Except for the blind-obediance-to-unexamined-laws-while-ignoring-the-harm-principle part.




"Summary execution after a kangaroo court session was the National Socialist Party`s preffered application of justice."

They had their incarceration kicks too. If you think the US doesn't kill sex criminals, or has the capacity to expand their death penalty, you're wrong. Remember, Marc faces the death penalty for a victimless crime - there's no end to how bad the USA could get in the near future.




"The school teacher was given a great amount of conditional leniency which she blatantly ignored."

"Obey our irrational laws or we will let a rapist out and put you in!"








"Her actions clearly demonstrated that she could not be trusted to not re-offend."

Keep ignoring the lack of evidence of harm, and keep focusing on the obedience. I'm sure you have many authoritarian friends who will agree with you.






"Again you demonstrate your lack of confidence when you resort to calling me a Nazi."

I didn't call you a Nazi - I said your argument sounded similar to their arguments. If you don't understand the difference, I can't help you. If you don't want to learn from history, that's up to you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_policy_of_Nazi_Germany

The "obey" and "lack of harm principle" similarities are bigger than any differences you can cite.






"I merely asked you if you lived in a trailer park because your line of reason fits in with someone with a trailer park upbringing."

Neither Marc Emery nor Maha nor anyone else who opposed the "jail everyone" mentality in these forums lived in a trailer park. I would try to find some evidence to back up what you say about harm ... these other types of arguments arn't really that convincing.




"If you are a Pedophile,that is your problem."

Not everyone who opposed segregation was black. Not everyone who opposed the Nuremburg laws was Jewish.





"If I learn about it,then you will really have a problem."

The chances of me getting a sex change in order to seduce teen boys are remote. Have you seen how hairy I am?








"You really should leave the international war profiteers alone because there just isn`t much you can do about them."

Wait till my next Potshot magazine comes out.







"On the other hand,you really should do something about the Canadian government`s willingness to be Uncle Sam`s little bitch."

I still find time to do lots of that inbetween keeping the obedience freaks in this forum in line.






"That you can do something about.250,000,000 Dollars pilfered by the liberals from your treasury? Nazis?"

Theves. You have your crimes mixed up. I vote NDP and organize anti-drugwar activities - when the drug war ends the cafe and compassion club community will grow stronger and so will the NDP and other left-wing groups.

If that's child abuse where were the abusers when I was growing up damnit!!! She's cute but imagine just how cute she would appear to a 14 year old, damn lucky kid.

Maybe our laws are archaic.Maybe we actually should allow young people to assume adulthood at an earlier age;which would also allow them to have access to gainful employment.
Considering how much more youngsters are capable of shouldering than we allow them to at this time.I always did chafe at the child labor laws. I understand the harm principle.It does not apply to sex crimes.You certainly could not use that as a defense in court.There are definately other crimes where harm to the victim must be established.Not in sex crimes does harm have to be established.Even if it was great sex between the woman and the boy,the court would not consider this evidence at all.
There are some laws you can`t afford to break (twice) without getting the book thrown at you.I have explained the present reality of the protection the law grants underage children. As the current tide against sexual predators builds,I should think we shall see even harsher sentences
issued from the juries and judges____See Jessica`s Law.

You should not compare chemical analyses with little people;that may lead one to conclude that humans are product.I have used terms such as pedophile,sexual predator,
baby raper and so on because they are in common use by a broad spectrum of society.A shrink would use the word pedophile and a hardened criminal in prison would use baby raper.As I said, I fully understand the harm principle.I have had to find witnesses who could testify to the amount of harm done to a victim of menacing/stalking/harrassment because without that testimony the defendant walks.

One thing All of us can say is that we can`t say one way or another if this particular child will or will not be harmed by his teacher.The fact is that from study of victims of such incidents it has been concluded that it is harmful for children to be taken advantage of sexually.The law protects every single child under the age of consent.So far The only evidence there was no harm to the youngster has been given by persons who are past puberty.Little ones have little minds and little bodies which one could compare to a Nectarine or a Peach growing on their parent trees.What happens to the fruit when it is picked before it is ripe? Oh yes I can use this comparison because it is a very good example of what the teacher did to the unripe boy.

Sex abuse of boys not only trait duo share.

Like Mary Kay Letourneau, Tennessee woman risks all for relationship with victim!

By BONNA de la CRUZ
Staff Writer

As well as the blonde hair and the 13-year-old victim, the Tennessee former teacher convicted of sleeping with a student has much in common with the most famous teacher caught in a sex scandal — Mary Kay Letourneau of Seattle.

Troubled marriages. Child-like behavior. Larger-than-life father figures. And most of all, a recklessness to continue the relationship when courts have told them not to.

Former gym teacher Pamela Rogers, 28, who once taught at a Warren County elementary school, was arrested again last month on charges that she sent text messages, nude pictures and racy videos of herself to her underage victim, despite a court order against it.

Eight years ago, Letourneau, then 34, also defied court orders to stay away from her teenage victim, Vili Fualaau, and was caught having sex with him only a month after she was released from jail.

"The most striking similarity … is the fact that nothing keeps these two apart," Anne Bremner, a Seattle trial attorney and TV legal analyst, said of Rogers and her illicit messages to the boy.

"That's what happened with Mary. Nothing could keep her apart from Vili, and you know the end of the story. She marries him," said Bremner, an expert on the Letourneau case. (Bremner defended a Washington state police department against a civil lawsuit filed by Fualaau and his mother, alleging the police and school district failed to protect him. A jury rejected those claims.)

Letourneau, now 44, and Fualauu, 22, are raising their two young daughters, 8 and 7, one conceived during the original offense and one during a probation violation.

Letourneau shocked the world nearly a decade ago when the Seattle-area elementary school teacher threw away her suburban life with her husband and four children for a 13-year-old.

"When you find the same elements — teacher, pretty, a 12- or 13-year-old boy, a love story, a crime story — the conclusion is it's another Mary Kay Letourneau," Bremner said.

Those elements are the same that pushed the Pamela Rogers case to national attention, similar elements as those in the case of Debra Lafave, a blue-eyed, blonde Florida teacher caught up in a similar situation in 2004.

“They’re all gorgeous,” Bremner said of the women.

Other abuse cases involving female teachers and minor victims in Tennessee haven’t gotten the same kind of attention.

An East Tennessee prosecutor, who has handled two such cases, said neither of his cases became media sensations.

“I think the fact that Pamela Rogers is an attractive woman probably gave it more publicity,” said Al Schmutzer, district attorney general in Sevier County. In her college days, Rogers was the glitzy Ms. Monday Nitro of World Championship Wrestling at spring break festivities in 1997.

He also theorized that women such as Letourneau and Rogers like the media attention.

“It’s bizarre behavior,” Schmutzer said. “They come into the courtroom, and they’re looking their best, not like other defendants you see in court.”

Letourneau has been described by therapists as someone who enjoys media attention, and Rogers could be the same, Bremner said.

There are some differences: Letourneau had been married for 12 years and had children when she began the sexual relationship with Fualaau; Rogers was a newlywed with no children.

Letourneau communicated with her teen victim through schoolgirlish love notes. But, eight years later, Rogers could make contact with her victim through a cell phone she used to send nude photos and videos that showed her engaging in sexual activity.

Soulmates and support.

Many of the traits common to both Letourneau and Rogers are typical for female sex offenders — and even male offenders, for that matter, said Dr. Donna Moore, a Nashville psychologist who treats sex offenders.

Letourneau and Rogers offer good case studies of female offenders who abuse young victims using their position of power.

For instance, Letourneau and Rogers struck up a closeness with their victims with shared interests.

Letourneau, who recognized Fualaau’s artistic talent, nurtured that by going to museums and taking art classes with him.

Rogers, meanwhile, had basketball as a common interest with her young victim.

He was a star player on the school team. Her father is a basketball coach, as was her then husband. In fact, one of Rogers’ sexual trysts with the boy took place when she drove him to a basketball game that her then husband was coaching for Warren County High School.

“That’s called grooming,” Moore said, referring to a practice by sexual predators who earn their victims’ trust.

Offenders also groom the families of victims, she said. And because the offender and victim have shared interests, the time they spend together does not look suspicious, Moore said.

Both women were in troubled marriages.

Rogers and her husband of one year, Chris Turner, separated in late 2004. She began sleeping with her young victim in November 2004, according to authorities. Turner filed for divorce in January 2005, the month before she was arrested.

Letourneau’s marriage was also on shaky ground, plagued by her first husband’s infidelities, according to news reports.

“Her marriage was not going well,” Bremner said. “Her dad was diagnosed with cancer, and she did not get sympathy. She was just devastated. Vili was the guy that gave her the empathy and support.”

Both Rogers and Letourneau seemed to find a “soulmate” in their young lovers, Bremner said.

“Offenders like this are in some ways narcissistic,” Bremner said. “They are in marriages where they are not getting the attention they want. They see themselves in grandiose terms. The only person who thinks she’s perfect is a 13-year-old with raging hormones.”

A Virginia-based psychologist who researches female sex offenders said such relationships serve the emotional needs of the adults. She spoke generally about female sex offenders and not directly about Letourneau or Rogers.

“A lot of women (offenders) have anxiety or depression. Many of them have a sexual abuse history. Not uncommonly they have personal problems in their lives or in their family of origin. And very often the child meets an emotional need,” said Julia Hislop, author of the book “Female Sex Offenders: What Therapists, Law Enforcement and Child Protective Services Need to Know.”

“Sometimes the needs are just for attention of a non-threatening relationship,” Hislop said.

Women show immaturity.

Both Letourneau and Rogers talked the language of their adolescent lovers and exhibited traits of arrested development in communication with their victims, according to Bremner.

Letourneau would talk about her bangs and her cheerleader days in a squeaky, girlish voice, Bremner said. Rogers, in text messages to her lover, used adolescent shorthand, like “I wish I could tlk 2u.”

“It’s not uncommon to see adult offenders age themselves down and age their victims up so that it’s a close fit, although that’s not true,” Moore said. Letourneau spoke of her victim as being mature “beyond his years,” Moore said.

The two women had some things in common that may have little to do with their crime.

Both of their fathers played large roles in their lives. Rogers’ father, Lamar Rogers, is a championship girls basketball coach in Fentress County, a celebrity figure of sorts in small-town Tennessee. She called him a “hero” in a blog. (She also said her heroes are Jesus and the boy she abused.)

Letourneau’s father, John Schmitz, served in the U.S. Congress and even ran for president in 1972 as an independent. “She was daddy’s little girl,” Bremner said.

Both women also suggested they would wait for the youngsters.

On her page on the Web site MySpace.com, Rogers said she would wait three years for love, prosecutors said, which would be the time at which the boy she abused would reach the legal age of sexual consent.

Letourneau and Fualaau exchanged wedding bands before she went to prison, according to Bremner. The rings were inscribed: “Oh happy day” and “I’ll be there.”

Mary Kay Letourneau holds her daughter in Normandy Park, Wash., on July 20, 1997. The baby was fathered by a 14-year-old boy who was as an elementary school student of hers.




Mary Kay Letourneau and Vili Fualaau outside their home in the Puget Sound area of Seattle. (ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT)




Pamela Rogers, with her attorney Peter Sprianse, pleaded no contest in 2005 to four counts of sexual battery by an authority figure for having a sexual affair with a 13-year-old male student.



Sunday, 05/07/06

http://www.gallatinnewsexaminer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060507/NEWS03/605070357

Forget the fact that they love each other ... and got married afterwards ... throw the sex predator child molestor kid assaulter baby violator in jail forever and throw away the key! Our teen boys must never, ever have a more mature, experienced sex partner - it's obviously bad for them!

Even though there's no chance of pregnancy and no stigma for the teen boy - it's still psychologically damaging for them to have an older woman love them up ... obviously.

And they rode off into the sunset together and lived happily everafter.Unless I am mistaken,the odds of success for
such an unequally yoked couple are extremely slim for a good conclusion.

Ladies? If you ever hook up with an underage man,do not use love for a defense.I am quite sure your lawyer would advise you that sex is not love.The prosecutor would have no trouble pointing out to the jury that you were motivated by self indulgence that had no consideration for the needs of the child or his parents.

Let us proceed to the conclusion;no matter how tempting it is to sleep with minors we strongly advise against doing so.
There are just too many adults 18 and over to risk being thrown in prison and registering as a sex offender.Not to mention the fact that once you start fucking the kids,you may not be able to stop.Also important to remember is that if your son or daughter is having sex with an adult and you consent ; you may be arrested and charged as an accessory to the crime when your kid tells the cops you allowed the affair to continue.

It is just the law.Nobody I know has ever had a problem with this section of the law.You have to be pretty to get in trouble that way.