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Iso oil and Honey oil


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#1 Laugh Weed

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 11:18 PM

OK, as I understand it, Iso Oil and Honey oil are made using the same principals.
Iso oil: flush the cannabis with Iso Alcohol and allow the alcohol to evaporate.
Honey oil: flush the cannabis with butane and allow the butane to evaporate.

What your left with is Honey Oil and Iso Oil.

What I don't understand is the consistancy of the finished oils are so different.

Iso Oil

Honey Oil

Iso oil is like an oil and Honey oil is more like a wax. Is that how it is suppose to be or am I missing something? Is there an easily explained reason as to why they are so different but at the same time soo much alike?

Thanks

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#2 mainekind420

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 08:09 AM

I am NO expert so someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think they are made using two different pricipals. Iso uses a chemical reaction to break down the thc to an oil, allowing it to pass thru the filter. Butane, on the other hand, uses cold boiling (if that makes sense...it reaches a temp cold enough to "boil" the thc, making it passable thru the filter). The butane evaps much quicker, since it is a gas at room temp. I have considerably more experience with butane than Iso, but I think the Iso takes longer to dry (as in days to dry it to a consistency simlar to the butane you have pictured) and may leave more fluid behind? I always dry for a few days, then heat and scrap with a razor...gives you fairly easily manipulated product.

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#3 Throwgar

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 11:03 AM

I'm no expert either, so I could be wrong, but alcohol and butane work the same way when it comes to an extraction. THC is both alcohol and butane soluable. That means when the plant material comes into contact with either solvent, the THC will be absorbed into the liquid. Strain the veg matter, and let the liquid dry and you've got oil. The way that the two are different is that butane will leave behind much less residue. Triple distilled butane will leave behind almost nothing. Here's a picture of what I'm talking about:

Clean Colibri butane:


Less pure no-name butane:


I haven't tried this with ISO, but I'd assume that it would leave behind even more of a residue after drying. This residue is left over indide of the oil, and who really wants to be smoking this stuff?

Anyway, I've heard ISO extracted oil being called honey, as well as the butane extracted oil, so I'm not sure if the difference is there.

Just for giggles, there are a LOT of different types of THC solvents that can be used to make honey oil. The only one that I can remember off of the top of my head is Hexane, since it's the cleanest that you can get. It's also much more volatile than either butane or ISO.

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#4 mainekind420

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 12:26 PM

That sounds right....I use Vector exclusively, it's the cleanest butane I have found yet. And I know they call it oil when it is still liquid...but if you dry it all the way, I think you get a much better product. I definately recommend butane over iso...just be careful! Ventilate or do it outside. I read that Iso may leave some residue in the product, but it should evap when burning...sounds a little scary!

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#5 Laugh Weed

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 05:31 PM

Here's some of what I've found.

Vector Butane: Some of Vector's advertising ploys: 1) Vector 5Times refined Butane Gas. 2) Vector Quintuple Refined Butane leaves no impurities behind to clog your lighters.

Hexane: Hexane is an alkane hydrocarbon. The "hex" prefix refers to its six carbons, while the "ane" ending indicates that its carbons are connected by single bonds. Hexane isomers are largely unreactive, and are frequently used as an inert solvent in organic reactions because they are very non-polar. They are also common constituents of gasoline.
Hexane is produced by the refining of crude oil. The exact composition of the fraction depends largely on the source of the oil (crude or reformed) and the constraints of the refining. The industrial product (usually around 50% by weight of the straight-chain isomer) is the fraction boiling at 65–70 °C.
The acute toxicity of hexane is relatively low. The effects of hexane poisoning in humans are not permanent, and usually disappear gradually over one to three years after the end of exposure.

So basically there is solvent residue left behind pretty much with any extraction solvent you use. Some are cleaner and some has more residue than others. The less residue the better the oil/butter.

What I'm going to do is follow Throwgar's example and test several different solvents myself to see which leaves the least residue or which is the cleanest before I make any oil/butter.

Too bad the "BudderKing" won't tell what he uses to make his butter. Beautiful budder

Thanks to everyone for your help.
LW

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#6 mainekind420

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 06:57 AM

Quote:



Too bad the "BudderKing" won't tell what he uses to make his butter. Beautiful budder

Thanks to everyone for your help.
LW


Seriously man...I am sure he starts with some solvent based hash.

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#7 CAUSTIC

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 01:14 PM

from my understanding its honey oil that is reduced to a delta 6 thc through direct isomerization and whipped to get that light crispy consistency when the oils harden.

that process seems like it is the most likely. one of the reasons i have been desperate to try isomerization. it gives me wood when i think of it.



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#8 mainekind420

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 08:05 AM

Quote:



that process seems like it is the most likely. one of the reasons i have been desperate to try isomerization. it gives me wood when i think of it.




isomerization...not a familiar term to me...can you enlighten me?

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#9 CAUSTIC

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 07:08 PM

this is a VERY DANGEROUS PROCESS! NOT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE CLUMSY OR UNFAMILIAR WITH HANDLING DANGEROUS CHEMCALS.

there are two ways of doing an isomerization, both are the same except for one way of doing it is that you add the ashes of the oil extracted buds into the mix and it apparently helps it isomerize differently. ok that aside here is the bastardized basic idea behind it.

taking a crude hash oil and refining it into a pure oil...
you use muriatic acid to raise the ph to a point where the plant organics that are not an oil will start to corode until it becomes carbon, then there is only the carbon and the oil left, you add a base solution to bring the ph back down to a netral ph. you then flush it with water to allow the the carbons and salts to separate and fall to the bottom and then you have the oil on top. it will end up leaving you with a pure delta 9, or a delta 6 thc oil. depending on the process. i will find the link or repost the specifics on how to do an isomerization.




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#10 mainekind420

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 12:10 PM

sounds interesting... a link would be awesome.

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#11 Throwgar

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 01:52 PM

What is the concentration of the HCL to do something like this? Do you have to worry about cross contamination, or does the HCL not alter the finished product, other than concentration? Can you use a 30% solution of H3CO3 in stead? This is some dangerous stuff, and if people plan on smoking it, they should understand exactly what's going on.

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#12 mainekind420

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 07:24 AM

As I understand it, the HCL, which is easily mixes with water, is diluted (and mixed with base) and then the oil (which does not mix with water) floats on top....my question is how to remove the oil from the top. Evap? I think that link will set us straight... I just dropped you a good rating Caustic because you always seem to have well-researched answers in this forum... don't forget about that link!

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#13 CAUSTIC

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 10:28 AM

Quote:

As I understand it, the HCL, which is easily mixes with water, is diluted (and mixed with base)




the base is added after the oil has been added. the point of adding the base is to return everything back to a neutral ph and make it safe for human consumption. ph testing strips, or a ph meter is used to bring the mix to the proper ph. so if you were using a lower purity acid, you could just adjust the quantity of acid in order to reach the target ph.

in order to collect the resin you would want to use an ALL GLASS separating funnel. it is like a beaker with an all glass construction with a spigot/tap at the bottom. once everything has been returned to a neutral ph, and everything has separated their own viscus layers, you slowly open the tap and bleed the solution and impurities out the bottom until you get to the layer of oil. then you pour it out into a shallow glass dish, let it settle into layers again, put it in the firdge or freezer until the oil gets solid, and then you dab off the excess water with a paper towel. then let it air dry, or blow dry till you are completely water free.

here is a pic of said separator. buy it now price on ebay is around $70 us, and $83 cdn. you can find them in this area on ebay.ca http://business.list...ListingItemList



and here is the link to isomerization on erowid.org.
PLEASE GO TO THE VERY BOTTOM OF THE PAGE AND READ THE INFO UPDATE BEFORE YOU ATTEMPT TO DO THIS PROCESS, IT WILL SAVE YOU A FEW HEADACHES!
http://www.erowid.or...hemistry2.shtml

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#14 mainekind420

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 07:38 AM

Thanks again man, and that link is very clear...plenty of info. Have you done this yourself? If so, how did it turn out?

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#15 Throwgar

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 09:10 AM

So... where can I get all of the chemicals needed for this?

I know that I can get HCL at Home Depot, since it's used to clean concrete.

As for the pure ethonal, your guess will be better than mine.

We're using HCL instead of H2SO4, right? I wouldn't feel comfortable using Sulfuric Acid with something that I was going to smoke...

What's the best and most reliable way to heat a liquid to a desired temperature? Hotplate? What to use for the thermometer?

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#16 CAUSTIC

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 04:39 PM

i am in the same stage as you throwgar. i have been slowly looking around for the best sources for the cleanest possible way to make this and also find the least expensive route. i am curious if there are electric elements that are digitally controlled for temp. and if so how exorbitantly expensive are they. i think that will be the most expensive piece to the kit. ( i would also make my own home made vape outta the thing to make sure it was always used...lol)

i need to research the difference between everclear and 99% iso. if iso can be used then i would get that for cheap at a paint store. you can buy 99.9% pure iso for $20 cdn per gallon. just tell them you need the thinner used for zinc paints, and it is cheaper if you buy the 5 gallon buckets.

as for the type of acid used, it doesnt really matter as far as i understand, sure the acid may be sulphur based, but once the base is added, the salts that contain the sulphur crystalize and drop to the bottom once the solution reaches a netral ph. so it removes the possible contaminants. BUT I COULD VERY WELL BE WRONG. lol. if you have any doubts, follow the recipie to a fault.

as for the base/caustic (hee hee) i believe it is simular to the needs of the acid. any pure kind will do. and the potency should be noted for trying to get a properly neutral ph. test it with a strip or meter for proper ph levels.

if you use different potency products or different products, chart the amounts needed and what the results were and let us all know. i think i will do the same. so maybe we can do an isomerization thread to chart our progress.


my father has the separatory funnel and now we are just looking to get the rest of the equipment and play for a bit.

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#17 Throwgar

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 08:56 PM

I have a friend that works at a lab, and he told me that he'd get me all the chemicals that I need with his next order. I'm getting food grade HCL at a .1 molarity, ethanol and acetone. I just bought the funnel off of ebay.

I read something interesting in that faq, you can use sodium bicarbonate on the acid, just keep on adding it until it stops fizzing. That's a good trick. No need for the base. Sodium Bicarbonate is baking soda, right?

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#18 CAUSTIC

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 12:05 AM

yes it is, and just the descrption of a soda means that it is a base. too strong of a base, and too fast would cause a little bit of a violent reaction. kinda like the elementary school vinegar and baking soda.

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Cannabis Culture and the Freedom Tour are out there educating people on how to fight for their rights and freedoms. Check out CC's activism threads and http://www.freedomtour.ca to find the tools to enforce your rights!

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#19 mainekind420

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 08:53 AM

For those of us without lab connections (lucky bastard) pure ethanol can be made from the 190 proof everclear. "Absolute ethanol was first obtained in 1796 by Johann Tobias Lowitz, by filtering distilled ethanol through charcoal." (Wikipedia) There were some related items on that page but nothing about Iso.

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#20 rol1

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 02:36 PM

http://en.wikipedia....llihn_condenser

http://en.wikipedia....raham_condenser

http://en.wikipedia....iebig_condenser

http://boards.marihe.../thd6x902.shtml

http://boards.marihe...ml?0x12329xISO2

Quote:

The potency of marijuana can be increased by about 50% simply by simmering a water slurry of the material for 2 hours. Add water as necessary to maintain the level. Cool and filter the mixture, and refrigerate the aqueous solution. Dry the leaf material at low heat. Drink the tea before smoking the marijuana. The effects are much more intense and last longer than those from the untreated leaves. The boiling water treatment isomerizes the inactive CBD, and decarboxylates THCA to THC.

Although Cannabidiol (CBD) has no psychoactivity, it does antagonize THC and produces other valuable sedative, antibiotic, and anti-epileptic effects. CBD can be isomerized to THC. If the plant is Phenotype III (containing mainly CBD in its resin), isomerization can double the yield of THC.

The CBD fraction of column chromatography can be distilled (bp 187-190° C/2 mm; pale yellow resin) to purify it. Isomerization can be accomplished with any of several solvents and acids. Alcohol and sulfuric acid isomerizes only 50-60% of CBD to THC; p-TolueneSulfonic Acid (p-TSA) in petroleum ether or other light, non-polar solvent will convert 90% of CBD to THC upon refluxing 1 hour at 130° F. (16, 17)

Reflux 3 gr CBD in 100 ml dry benzene for 2 hours with 200 mg p-TSA monohydrate until the alkaline Beam test (5% KOH in ethanol) is negative (no color). The Beam test gives a deep violet color with CBD. Separate the upper layer, wash it with 5% sodium bicarbonate, wash again with water, and strip the solvent. The remaining viscous oil should give a negative reaction to the Beam test. The crude THC can be purified by distillation (bp 169-172° C/0.03 mm), or by chromatography in 25 ml pentane on 300 gr alumina. Elute with pentane 95:5 ether to yield fraction of CBD and THC. Combine the THC fractions and distill (bp 175-178° C/1 mm).

Reflux 2 gr CBD in 35 ml cyclohexane, and slowly add a few drops of sulfuric acid. Continue to reflux until the Beam test is negative. Separate the sulfuric acid from the reaction mixture. Wash the solution twice with aqueous sodium bicarbonate, the twice again with water. Purify by chromatography, or distill (bp 165° C/0.01 mm). Any unreacted CBD can be recycled.

Another method is to reflux a mixture of 6 gr dry pyridine hydrochloride and 3 gr CBD at 125° C until the Beam test is negative. Wash the reaction mixture with water to remove the pyridine, then extract the mixture with ether. Wash the ether with water, evaporate the ether, and distill the residue i.v. to yield pure THC.

Similarly, reflux 3 gr CBD in 150 ml ethanol with 50 ml 85% phosphoric acid until the Beam test is negative. Work up the reaction mixture, and purify the THC.

Alternatively, reflux 3 gr CBD in 100 ml absolute ethanol containing 0.05% HCl for 19 hours. Extract the ether, wash the ether with water, dry, evaporate, and chromatograph on 400 gr alumina to yield:

(a) 0.5 gr 1-EthoxyHexaHydro-CBN (EHH-CBN: mp 86-87° C); elute with pentane 98:2 ether. Recrystalize from methanol and water.

(b) 2 gr THC; elute with pentane 95:5 ether. Repeated chromatography will separate the less polar forms.

© 0.5 gr EHH-CBN, eluted with pentane 93:7 ether. It can be isomerized to THC by refluxing in benzene for 2 hours. Cool the reaction mixture, wash it with water; separate, dry, and strip the solvent layer i.v. to yield THC.

CBD also can be isomerized by irradiation of a cyclohexane solution in a quartz vessel with a mercury lamp (235-265 nm) for 20 minutes. Workup of the reaction mixture yields 7-13% THC. (18-20)




Honey oil is not what a "Honey Bee Extractor" produces. That is just oil or resin. But if you can understand the quotes below, you will have the golden oil and not the dark reddish oil.

Quote:

6.4 ~ Acetylation

THC gives an acetate (ATHC) which is as potent as THC. The mental effects are quite subtle and pleasant. Wohlner, et al., prepared ATHC by refluxing the crude distillate of cannabis oil with approximately 3 volumes of acetic anhydride. It is purified by distillation i.v. or with steam.

Cahn prepared ATHC thus: add 150 ml acetyl chloride (dropwise with stirring and cooling) to 185 gr crude resin in 500 ml dry pyridine. Crystals may separate during the addition, or on standing a few hours at room temperature. Pour the mixture into dilute hydrochloric acid/ice. Separate the oil, then dissolve it in ether. Wash this solution with dilute acid, then with aqueous sodium carbonate, and again with water. Dry the solution with calcium chloride. Strip the solvent and distill the residue (240-270 C°/20 mm). The mixture of acetylated cannabinoids is separated by dissolving 2 gr in 100 ml benzene and chromatography over silica (150-200 mesh). Elute with 800 ml benzene. Combine the washings and the original effluent solutions, then strip the benzene i.v. to recover about 60% yield of light yellow oil. The material remaining on the column contains CBD and other cannabinoid acetates which can be recovered with ethanol and worked up.(21)




I have looked around for the original plans for a refluxing chambers, but no luck there, but is has been almost 30 years since I saw those books.

When built properly it reuses the alcohol and gets all the dissolubles out of the leaf.

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